It is true that christians are to help the poor, however the gospel never places economics before morals. Obama says he is a christian, but supports planned parenthood and their practice of terminating the lives of unborn children. He as a christian opposes marriage between a man and a woman. Fundamentals Jesus give in Matthew stating, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. A follower of Jesus would never support perversion. No matter what the reason. We are to always follow the Word in the direction given from Genisis - Revelation. Loving the person but hating the sin. How can Obama be a christian and yet be so liberal. It’s hard to convince me based on his record. Facts do not lie. You will know a person by their fruit. And if you walk like the world, talk like the world, look like the world, hang with the world and are supported by the world you are not a christian, but of the world!

however the gospel never places economics before morals.

Umm... since when are economic issues NOT moral issues? Please point out where the Bible distinguishes between "economics" and "morals."

He as a christian opposes marriage between a man and a woman

He does? Please show me where he opposed marriage between man and a woman. I would love to see that Obama quote.

How can Obama be a christian and yet be so liberal.

Heh... who knew that that Bible talks about conservative and liberal politics.

Dave,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments about the link between Abortion and Economics. A recent study commissioned by "Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good" had Political Science and American Government Scholars from Penn State, Notre Dame, and Georgetown to conduct studies on how best to significantly reduce abortions in America. The results were shocking! Economic pressures upon pregnant women is a major cause of their abortions. To read the full study with charts and everything, go to
http://www.catholicsinalliance.org/ and click to read full Abortion study (19 pages). Or another option is to simply read the press release. I am very impressed that this study was done in a very non-partisan manner. Here is a snippet from the press release:
“Too often our abortion debate has been used to score political points by both sides, rather than to identify what kinds of public policies will actually prevent and reduce abortions in America. This data shows that policy makers on both sides of the aisle have a moral imperative to enact legislation that provides economic and social supports for vulnerable women and families in order to reduce abortions,” said Alexia Kelley, Executive Director of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good. “Being pro-life is not just a slogan. It requires concrete programs and public policies that help women and families with robust economic and social supports. Both political parties can agree to unite behind comprehensive strategies that reduce abortions.”

Abortion is never all right. You can't justify it. Yes we need to help economic patterns that create a supposed need for abortion, but we can't allow abortion. It is hypocritical to be pro choice.

I don't even understand why Barack Obama would be pro choice and for infanticide.

The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion. Mother Teresa

Obama doesn't support infanticide.

Spread lies somewhere else.

Dave, you say he does not support infanticide? Here you go; this is all on the record people reference for yourselfs that is something he cannot cover up.

Obama was opposed to Illinois legislation in 2001, 2002 and 2003 that would have defined any aborted fetus that showed signs of life as a "born alive infant" entitled to legal protection, even if doctors believe it could not survive.

Dave, you say he does not support infanticide? Here you go; this is all on the record people reference for yourselfs that is something he cannot cover up.

Obama was opposed to Illinois legislation in 2001, 2002 and 2003 that would have defined any aborted fetus that showed signs of life as a "born alive infant" entitled to legal protection, even if doctors believe it could not survive.

You should actually do your research. There were already laws that required doctors to care for live babies. Obama voting against this law did not mean that Obama was okay will killing live babies, and it does NOT mean that he supports "infanticide."

Dave,
Again, you really need to stop listening to just what Obama tells you, the so called "law" that he goes around to try and cover up for himself was a law from 1975 that was then found unconstitutional in 1884 thanks to those who support abortion, yes he would be right if the original law was in place but it was overturned in the 80's. So please I think you need to do your research.

From FactCheck.org:

But for Jessen to claim that she "wouldn't be here" without the legislation Obama opposed is false. Jessen's life would have been protected under Illinois law with or without any of the "born alive" bills Obama opposed in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

And from the Republican sponsor of the legislation:

None of those who voted against SB-1082 favored infanticide.

So go troll somewhere else. Maybe you can find another blog interested in your distortions and lies.

Dave,
again you repeat what he says, and yes in your very reference it references what I already said in 1975 that was law but in the 80's due to Pro Choice people the court found the law to be unconstitutional. Tell people the truth they can handle they like Obama regardless on here but at least tell them the truth.

To do otherwise constitutes a Class 3 felony, which carries a sentence of two to five years in prison. That's been the law in Illinois since 1975, two years before Jessen was born. What Obama voted against was legislation that would have extended the law's protection to any aborted fetus that shows any sign of life, even if doctors are certain that it cannot survive.

First, I find it quite funny that you ignore much of what I have said and posted, including this:

From the Republican sponsor of the legislation:

None of those who voted against SB-1082 favored infanticide.

But go ahead and ignore the person who wrote the bill and continue to baselessly claim that Barack Obama supports infanticide.

Second, lets be honest with what the new law did. It extended the current legal requirements so that doctors would be required to try and save fetuses even though the doctor has determined that the fetus cannot survive. Doctor's were and are required to attempt to save any fetus that shows a sign of life and has a change of living. The law would have extended it so that doctor's would have to attempt to save a life even if the doctor has determined that the fetus cannot and will not survive.

Let me state this clearly - Barack Obama DOES NOT support infanticide, and to claim that he does goes well beyond any standard of decency or honesty.

Dave, The law that you speak of was ruled unconstitutional! Look everyone go ahead and go to youtube and hear from Obamas mouth himself say that a second doctor would only impede the original decision of the mother who wanted the abortion. Meaning that when the child survives the abortion and is there suffering the original decision was to kill it so the child should die. That is what you support Dave. Good job, keep referencing his talking points in the end you can not make it right (by making a law) to do something that is morally wrong. If killing an unborn child is not morally wrong for you then you should not be able to call yourself a Christian.

If killing an unborn child is not morally wrong for you then you should not be able to call yourself a Christian.

I didn't realize that you got to choose who was a Christian or not.

Do any of you who are in support if obama watch fox news especially hannit and comes. If I were you I would you just might change your mind about this man. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing. This man wants to take money away from those that work hard and give it to those that don't work at all. How can anyone let alone a christian be in support of abortion in any shape or form partial, not partial what ever killing of another is wrong. This man owns a million dollar home but says that those of us who have a small business should have to give our money to to others. Is he willing to give up his own money why does he need a million dollar home. His campaign complains about palins clothing costs but he has not problem spending 250 million dollars in the last week of the election on a 30 minute infommercial of why you should vote for him. Supposedly his wife bought her outfit at walmart for $150.00 dollars please what walmart has clothes for that much. His wife stated that she was only now proud to be an american because her husband was nominated for president. He attends a church of a pastor who say god damn american and states that the government made of hiv to get rid of white PLEASE!!!!!!! give me a break. His own nominated vice president insists that there will be an inernational crisis within 6 months of obamams presidency. I don't know about you but I sure don't want to attract that kind of behavior for out country. We have lose enough people due to terrorists. Obama along with many democrats wants to cut military spending good time to do that while we are at war. One minute he says all troops will come home the next he says he will pull troops out accordingly to not cause harm to this country. This man goes back and forth on what he says he is way to inexperiences to be chief of our country. This man is willing to say whatever he needs to say to whatever group of people to obtain votes. This man sickens and scares me he is truly a wolf in sheeps clothing and he has way to many people convinced that he's not.

Do any of you who are in support if obama watch fox news especially hannit and comes.

Hehe. You are using "hannit and comes" (sic) as your source? This should be fun.

This man wants to take money away from those that work hard and give it to those that don't work at all.

Yea... it is called progressive taxation and safety net programs. McCain supports that. Of course, McCain also supports such things in other ways. Read up on his HOLC proposal sometime.

How can anyone let alone a christian be in support of abortion in any shape or form partial, not partial what ever killing of another is wrong.

Well... there are many Christians who support abortion. Further, I believe that Barack Obama will do much more than John will do actually reduce abortions. He will actually care about children after they are born.

This man owns a million dollar home but says that those of us who have a small business should have to give our money to to others.

What does the size of his home have to do with his policy proposals? Nice straw man. Do you know how many homes John McCain owns? And does your small business make more than $250,000 in taxable income? If so, then yea, you will be asked to pay a slightly higher rate in taxes. If you are making more than $250,000 in taxable income (not revenue), I am pretty sure that you will survive.

Is he willing to give up his own money why does he need a million dollar home.

Yea... he is, actually. He, like anyone else, will pay the appropriate amount of taxes. And seriously? You are attacking him for owning a million dollar home? First of all, do your research on John McCain's homes before you come on here trolling. Second of all, who the hell cares about their homes? All politicians are rich.

His campaign complains about palins clothing costs but he has not problem spending 250 million dollars in the last week of the election on a 30 minute infommercial of why you should vote for him.

This is a blatant lie. Obama is not spending anywhere close to $250M on his "infommercial" (sic). Nice try though. But seriously... you are attacking him for running a good campaign? And using the money that donors have given him? I have no idea how spending $150,000 on clothes (who spends that much on clothes anyway?!?!) is similar to buying television time though. I would love to hear that explanation.

Supposedly his wife bought her outfit at walmart for $150.00 dollars please what walmart has clothes for that much.

Huh? Where did she say that? Got a source for that?

His wife stated that she was only now proud to be an american because her husband was nominated for president.

No she didn't. Nice try though.

He attends a church of a pastor who say god damn american and states that the government made of hiv to get rid of white PLEASE!!!!!!!

God probably should damn America sometimes.

I don't know about you but I sure don't want to attract that kind of behavior for out country.

I have no idea what this means. "Attract that kind of behavior?" Attract how? What kind of behavior? And "out (sic) country?" Huh?

We have lose enough people due to terrorists.

I agree... how is that relevant to... well... anything that you are saying?

Obama along with many democrats wants to cut military spending good time to do that while we are at war.

We should cut military spending.

One minute he says all troops will come home the next he says he will pull troops out accordingly to not cause harm to this country.

All troops will come home, eventually, and he will do it in an appropriate way.

This man goes back and forth on what he says he is way to inexperiences to be chief of our country.

Not really... Obama has stayed pretty consistent this whole campaign. And do you really want to see all of McCain's flip flops? I bet Sean "hannit" doesn't tell you about those. You can start here.

This man is willing to say whatever he needs to say to whatever group of people to obtain votes.

Again, not really. And again, do some research on John McCain. Sometimes it seems like you are talking ABOUT John McCain.

This man sickens and scares me he is truly a wolf in sheeps clothing and he has way to many people convinced that he's not.

You know what is really scary? That people like you get all their news from Fox News.

He does not change his mind depending on who he's talking to. What he does is clarify what he has said after others twist his original words around. After reading your post I understand that English is hard for you but you need to either educate yourself or trust in those more educated than you. We do not need another hothead, rich man's President in our White House! Obama has stated the same thing, in different ways, because he keeps getting accused of things he never said. Most of us understand him the first time.

get a life. abortion should be left to the woman and family and their own good judgement.

make a woman not ready for a child have it and if she has a sick mind she will kill it. put on the news look at all the freaks killing their own children.

get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you! I am so glad this website is not totally full of crazy Christians. If we are Christ-like let us look at the way we are behaving towards these two children of God. The anti-Christ movement towards Obama is getting sooooo out of hand, and who was it started by? The people who are supposed to be loving and Christ-like. Those that believe in this ignorant trash are the one's going against their responsibilities as Christ followers.
I am proud to say I voted for Obama and am a strong Christian! Both men have their flaws, yet as Obama seems to work to better the lives of those in need- a strong focus of Christs life- I feel that Obama is more like a Christ follower than McCain. I'd love to speak further with anyone who disagrees or agrees.

Rebecca,

I agree with you. I thought I was crazy because I voted for Obama and didn't toe the conservative party line. I don't understand how Focus on the Family and all those ministries are singularly focused on issues like abortion. THere are other sactitify of life issues, like aleviating poverty and stopping wars (ahem, ahem Iraq). I wish I had found this site before the election, so that I would've had a source of support...like minded Christians. BTW, I'm pretty conservative, but I can't watch Fox News because the people on there skew the news something fierce.

-----------------------------------
"It is hypocritical to be pro choice."
-----------------------------------
First off you are half right... does anyone listen to Jesus? He said to repent and turn away from sins so that you may have everlasting life... and he also says I came not to condemn the world, but provide everlasting life... and he asks us to be more like him, so what does this all mean?

I would have to agree that we must view abortion as a sin (so in that case, being personally Pro-choice, as Christian, is indeed Hypocritical), but Jesus also said he came not to condemn... (So you are wrong too, it would be hypocritical to deny "the lost" this choice!)

So as a conclusion, live as a pro-life Cristian, but love the lost by not denying them their own choice in the matter.

We are to be a light to the world, not a sword.

Spare yourself from judgment and save that dreadful task for Christ when he comes :-)
-----------------------------------
"I don't even understand why Barack Obama would be pro choice and for infanticide."
-----------------------------------
Again, if you give people a choice to turn away from their sins, the Holy Spirit will do miracles in their life, but denying that right, denies what Christ came to show us to be before the world!

Lastly, please consider the statement Barack made: "we may not agree on abortion, but we can all agree on reducing deaths of the unborn..." That my friend is what it is all about! And if Barack truly is PERSONALLY pro-choice as a Cristian, then PRAY FOR HIM! Not any candidate is ever going to be perfect, "we are all sinners!" But don't forget what Jesus said should be one of our highest priorities... saving the lost and feeding the poor. Trust God (not your heart, for in the bible it says our heart is vile and full of lust and sin) to answer which candidate seems to care most about the less fortunate?

Love,
just another branch on the vine :)

I agree with what is being said here. Obama is a fraud. He is not a Christian or if he is he's truly not showing the fruits of one.

I am sick of his lies.

I am especially sick of websites like this that cover up lies.

Almost everyone here is either not a Christian or needs to consult the Bible more. And Jason, if you say that the Bible doesn't show the way then you truly are lost.

Obama is a fraud. He is not a Christian or if he is he's truly not showing the fruits of one.

Huh? Who are you to say that he is not a Christian? And what fruits are you referring to?

I am sick of his lies.

Like what? And do you want to do a comparison of McCain and Obama's lies? That would be fun.

I am especially sick of websites like this that cover up lies.

What lies am I covering up? And, fwiw, I am "especially sick" of people that come onto sites like this and don't back up what they are saying, and make ludicrous statements about how Obama is not a Christian, regardless of the clear statements that he has made.

Almost everyone here is either not a Christian or needs to consult the Bible more.

Yup... I need to consult my Bible more. Or am I not a Christian?

You do not know me, and know nothing about my faith. So please do not come to my site and make arrogant and condescending statements about me and my faith.

Go troll somewhere else.

Dave, You never make any intelligent rebuttals, (read above) you have no answer for Obamas immorality that is why. Show me one fact you never show facts! I show you references and back it up, you make comments. Obama will lose, and yes he opposes gay marriage so I do not know why you support him sayings how you are gay.

You never make any intelligent rebuttals,

If you say so.

Show me one fact you never show facts!

I have given many facts.

I show you references and back it up, you make comments.

Really? I have backed up what I have said. Further, you continue to claim that I am saying things that I am not.

Obama will lose,

Really? Because you say so? I guess you don't like the facts on this one, do you? Almost every poll has Obama winning, and winning big. And here is a good source on the current state of the race, since you claim to like facts.

and yes he opposes gay marriage

I know that he opposed gay marriage. That is too bad. But I have long acknowledged that he opposes gay marriage even though you refuse to acknowledge that.

so I do not know why you support him sayings how you are gay.

Huh? Maybe my intellect isn't great enough, but I can't really understand your gibberish on this one.

Are you saying that I am gay? Now that is VERY Christian of you.

And my wife would probably disagree with you.

But go ahead and say that I am gay. And stay classy.

Dave,

Obama never says what he believes, so as far as to go and search for one particular moments when he actually says what he stands for would be a miracle in itself. You should be asking yourself why hasn't he stated his beliefs on anything? One moment he is for something the next moment he is against it. It all depends on what crowd he is speaking with that day.

Obama never says what he believes,

What are you talking about? He talks all the time about what he believes.

so as far as to go and search for one particular moments when he actually says what he stands for would be a miracle in itself.

Just curious if lying aligns with your Christian beliefs? Maybe you need to "see the light of the Lord."

You should be asking yourself why hasn't he stated his beliefs on anything?

You should ask yourself why you are not doing any research about what Obama says about what he believes in. You should also ask yourself why you are running around blogs spreading lies about someone. Christian, eh?

One moment he is for something the next moment he is against it. It all depends on what crowd he is speaking with that day.

Wrong. Go make up stuff somewhere else; I don't want to deal with it here.

Dave you wanted to see where Obama does not support gay marriage, here you go;

IFILL: Let's try to avoid nuance, Senator. Do you support gay marriage?

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.

Dave you wanted to see where Obama does not support gay marriage, here you go;

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.

No... I did not say that I wanted to see where Obama does not support gay marriage. I asked to see a quote where Obama opposed marriage between a man and a woman. And the quote that you have sure didn't show me that.

Dave, Your are just a bully on here, you choose not to accept the facts and yes you did say that about Obama read above. You are lacking the intellect to even try and converse with me. You contradict what you say, "read the blogs that you post". And yes Obama is for killing babies, his record speaks for itself. I bet you believe that they are not "lives" yet either, (the embryo) and yet its funny how liberals will protect and accept an endagerd eagle egg as a life by creating laws to protect it and yet are wiling to kill a life. Regardless of the circumstance that child has rights as well. Dave really stop drinking the kool aid.

yes you did say that about Obama read above.

This is what I said. I copied and pasted, so it is a direct quote:

Please show me where he opposed marriage between man and a woman. I would love to see that Obama quote.

The person I was replying to said that Obama opposed marriage between a man and a woman. I know of no politician who opposes such things, so I asked to see where Obama has opposed marriage between a man a woman. That is NOT, at all, opposing gay marriage.

Good try though.

I guess your great intellect has trouble with basic reading comprehension.

I bet you believe that they are not "lives" yet either, (the embryo) and yet its funny how liberals will protect and accept an endagerd eagle egg as a life by creating laws to protect it and yet are wiling to kill a life.

Keep making assumptions about me, even though it is quite clear that you do not have a clue about what you are talking about.

Dave, it seems that when you do not like what someone says you call them "liars" as I read they have shown you where they were indeed right. Who is the liar then? Keep posting stuff I will be happy to reference anything you do not believe and show it to be true, be careful when casting stones at people. Also, why are you so hostile? I thought this was a Christian forum, and yet you seem to have some real anger issues.

Dave, it seems that when you do not like what someone says you call them "liars" as I read they have shown you where they were indeed right.

Huh? Where?

Also, why are you so hostile? I thought this was a Christian forum, and yet you seem to have some real anger issues.

I am hostile to people who have little interest in dialog, but instead want to go trolling on blogs trying to tell Christians why they cannot vote for Obama. And I am not interested in the many, many lies that people have tried to spread on this blog about Barack Obama.

Dave,
The only lies on this blog are the ones coming from you trying to justify the actions of Obama again its on the record I have shown it and his VP said that himself and Obama are against Gay marriage that is Obamas VP the one who speaks on behalf of his policy's. And yes Obama does believe it is ok to let babies die that have been born from a partial birth abortion, check the legislation. You can try to spin it however you want to make yourself sleep better at night but he is a baby killer.

his VP said that himself and Obama are against Gay marriage

Please tell me which comment I said that Obama was not against gay marriage?

And yes Obama does believe it is ok to let babies die that have been born from a partial birth abortion, check the legislation.

Wrong. I know the legislation, and I know the context.

You can try to spin it however you want to make yourself sleep better at night but he is a baby killer.

Wrong.

Dave, Again, you forget what you write. Read above you call people who disagree with you liars.

No.

I call people who lie "liars."

There is a big difference between disagreeing and spreading outright lies and distortions.

Dave, I think I love you.

If Obama in fact wins it only shows God has removed his hand from this nation. Search your heart and get right with the Lord. Repent and prepare for a future laid out in Revelations. A true God fearing Christian protects the unborn, wanted or not.

Ummm... huh?

So let me guess... George Bush winning in 2000 and 2004 meant that God had "his" hand on this nation?

A true god fearing nation does a lot of things... not just opposes abortion.

And this country is not, and has never been, a "true god fearing nation."

Dave,
your tone is one that I am assuming believes in nothing. Our nation was founded on christian beliefs. Our beliefs as Christians has nothing to do with a "fearing God" but loving and living by his word. We do not have a reason to fear him, we have accepted his son as our Lord and Savior we are already save. My Brother I will pray for you that you to may someday be blessed and reach out to see the light of the Lord. God Bless you, and killing a baby is just wrong you do not need a religion to tell you that at least I would like to think that one would see that as wrong. That kind of upbringing comes from your family though. Lastly, abortion is a man made thing and Planned Parenthood was developed with the orginal purpose as a way of eliminating the blacks, Hispanics, and Jews. The founder saw it as a way of cleansing society of those weaker and less educated. Today it continues to feed off of the lower income people and has since turned into a "womens right" issue vice a humans right issue. Do you realize that our government has it illegal to kill an endangered eagle and that protection extends to its eagle egg or "unborn eagle". Our country would rather make laws to protect the lives of a animal than that of an unborn child.

your tone is one that I am assuming believes in nothing.

Friendly advice ... instead of assuming, you might want to look around the blog a little more.

Like at the title.

your tone is one that I am assuming believes in nothing.

Your tone is one that I am assuming has absolutely no clue about me or what I believe.

Our nation was founded on christian beliefs.

Umm... no. Good try though.

Our beliefs as Christians has nothing to do with a "fearing God" but loving and living by his word.

Really? You should do a study on the "Fear of the Lord" sometime.

My Brother I will pray for you that you to may someday be blessed and reach out to see the light of the Lord.

Cut the condescending crap. You have no clue about me or what I believe or what I have seen.

That kind of upbringing comes from your family though.

Huh? Now you are blaming my family for my alleged beliefs that you know so little about?

BTW... I am well aware of the history of Planned Parenthood.

But I am not sure how that relates to this post.

I agree with you Dave. Why is Bush's presidency attributed to the hand of God, but Obama's is not? God has left the room. That is so ridiculous. That's just like saying when Lincoln was in the White House and abolished slavery, God left the nation because some "Christians" were for slavery. No, God is sovereign and in control. Always. So, if a nation with such a brutual history of prejudice (the vestiges of which still remain today) votes for a black person, I'm inclined to believe that it was indeed the hand of God. Anybody who is elected, for that matter, is elected according to the will of God. All things work together for the good of those who love God. His will will always be done in the long run. So, why not do the Christian thing and pray for the leaders of our nation, whether you voted for them or not?

And I agree that America has never been a Christian nation...not since the Pilgrims and the Mayflower Compact. We might have had a Christian culture (most historians say that we are in a post-Christian nation), but that is toally different from our founding fathers actually being wholly dedicated to orthodox Christianity. They weren't BTW. Remember that Thomas Jefferson's personal bible didn't contain any miracles. He also had slaves and had children with them out of wedlock.

First of all, I wish abortion were outlawed just so it wouldn't be the cornerstone for determining who leads the nation. Secondly, if you believe that a fertilized egg is instantly a child, why are women who miscarry told it was just God's will, and no funeral or services held? 10% of pregnancy ends in spontaneous rejection by the body. And if you feel, as you obviously do, that a divided cell is a baby, fine. But if you support those who support unprovoked war and torture, please don't call yourself pro life...pro embryo would be more appropriate.

I can see that this issue has been breached several times over, but I would like to reiterate some of Dave's points.

"A true God fearing Christian protects the life of the unborn ..." Completely agreed, Derrick. However, a true God fearing Christian also protects the life of inmates on death-row, the lives of those in a war zone and the lives of those killed by guns. To focus on one issue as a Christian is short sighted.

Abortion is an enormous issue, but it is still a "hot button" Christian issue. If a "God fearing Christian" votes for a conservative who supports the death penalty, war and the right to bear arms ... they are as guilty of failing to protect life as a liberal who votes for a candidate who protects a woman's right to choose.

Sarah Palin has said ... and I paraphrase ... that she doesn't think anyone, democrat or republican, wants abortions. That is exactly how I feel as a human being and more so as a Christian. Abortions are horrible. However, if we were to make them illegal, they would not stop happening. Instead, abortions would become much more risky and dangerous to the mother and the child alike.

We as Christians must realize that we are only a portion of the population on this planet. Not everyone has heard, or come to accept the Gospel or Christ. Our job is not to judge and condemn, but to spread the GOOD NEWS.

In Him

Joe, thank you for putting my thoughts into words so much more eloquently than I have ever been able to.

God bless.

joe--thank you so much for your statement. i too am a follower of Christ (not the church or church leaders!) and find myself frustrated over and over again with conservatives. yes, abortion is terrible, but it is not the real issue. the issue is young girls you are ignored at home, so they find comfort in a relationship that cuts their youth short. the issue of abortion stems from the fact that we as a society are so "now" oriented, that we are unwilling to wait for that special, meaningful relationship (whether you marry or not) where you want to raise kids together. yes, i know that not everyone shares these moral views on sex, but we can all agree that rampant promiscuity leads to not only unwanted pregnancy, but a rapid spread of vds, hiv/aids, and many broken hearts! perhaps the way to reduce abortions is to increase education to our kids, which involves a community of caring adults, so that the youth of our society will respect themselves and others before a pregnancy even occurs! also, i have never been in the position of a victim of rape or a women faced with the choice: you die, or your baby dies. who am i (or who are lawmakers) to dictate what their choices are? abortions are just an effect of a much deeper cause. may we all love our neighbor as our self and do unto others as we would have done unto ourselves. true religion is this: to care for widows and orphans and those in need. love and respect is a much louder voice that condemnation.

Obama can be the only right choice for our country. We must have a leader who can lead us into change and we must not continue on the same path we are on at this moment. God will give the authority to the person of His choice, but I plan to vote for Obama.

I am against abortion but for family planning. I am against the needless killing of war. I feel that people can have love for whomever they choose. I am a christian and a close follower of Jesus and I am completely convinced that Obama is the right person for the Presidency.
There will not be a perfect candidate. There will always be shortcomings and there will be no one who can do the work of correcting this countrys mistakes in a vacuum. It will take all of us and we will need to pray for this country everyday. It will take a miracle of God to get us on the righteous road but I trust that Obama can take the lead, right behind Jesus and an army of christian supporters. Now is the time!!

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

Unless, of course, you are aborted before you get the chance....

But, hey, I am sure God is just fine with your choice....No, truthfully, I am. Go ahead. Now quit second guessing yourself.....Go ahead. Nothing wrong with a little infanticide, right?

Nothing wrong with a little infanticide, right?

Abortion isn't infanticide, and you know it.

It is so frustrating to try to convince my Christian brothers and sisters that there is more to righteousness than not being a homosexual and not having aborted a baby. While these are both abominations to God, we forget that slander is also an abomination, something John McCain has made his lifestyle in this campaign. This is the main reason why homosexuals and athiests hate us so much. I know we all know John 3:16, but what about John 3:17. "For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved." We spend so much time showing hate to this group of people that they draw further and further away from God, which is in it self us being disobedient to God. Refer to Mark 12:30-31 "And you shall love the Lord your God with with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” Right there it shows that the greatest 2 commandments are to love. There is no other greater, so there is no excuse for the condemning behavior of Christians. Barack Obama's campaign has been based on this commandment because no matter how much his opponents try to tear him down, he turns the other cheek and shows love. The exact thing God tells us to do. And when it comes to abortion and gay marriages, try not to twist peoples words because the Bible tells us that manipulation is witchcraft. He is not in favor of either, nor does he oppose God's views; however, he will not take away anyone's God given right to choose. You all chose to be servants of God, so why take that right away from anybody else. Perhaps if we behaved the way God called for us to, there might be more peace.

Rachel,
Thanks for sharing that. I shocked my best friend last night when I told her I was voting for Obama. I told her all the same things you just said, but not quite so elegantly. Another cool tidbit...I read THAT VERY scripture in Mark 12 just this morning, then read your comments. Thank you for sharing...I think God really used that to touch me personally.

Yes that IS cool. Apparently not as cool as convincing yourself that abortion is okay and justifiable because of "slander". By the way, facts that make you uncomfortable or that tarnish the halo of your saint of the moment do constitute "slander". They are just inconvenient truths. I used that phrase because you probably own the movie. Just trying to keep a frame of reference you would understand.

Apparently not as cool as convincing yourself that abortion is okay and justifiable because of "slander".

Nice distortion of what was said. Classy.

By the way, facts that make you uncomfortable or that tarnish the halo of your saint of the moment do constitute "slander".

"Saint of the moment?" Really? You know... you started off obnoxious. And now you are just getting plain ridiculous. Go troll somewhere else.

Silencing the debate? Oh, you'll love The Anointed One if he gets in...probably a place in the cabinet. Is there a Secretary of a Little Known Web Site Blogger? I'm not kidding. I think you have a shot. Wait, have you consorted with domestic terrorists? Then you'd REALLY be in....

Silencing the debate?

This isn't a debate. This you trolling on a blog being obnoxious.

Wait, have you consorted with domestic terrorists? Then you'd REALLY be in....

Any more talking points you can throw out?

Seriously... I am asking you to stop commenting. Go somewhere else.

You are not talking right. Jesus hung out with the sinners. He hung out with the adulterers, the tax collectors, the roman occupiers, and everyone in between. He said blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, blessed are those who mourn, blessed are those who hunger for righteousness----he never said hate your enemies, let people starve and be homeless, don't take care of the sick, let your old people rot in some horrible place for poor old people. No! You say murder is wrong and you are right. But if you want to live by the law you had better follow them all. You cannot say don't murder these innocents but go ahead and murder those innocents because they are a problem to me. The children of Iraq are still innocent and we bombed the heck out of them. That is murder too. I would not choose to have an abortion ever, and no one is ever going to make me have one. But that is my decision. It is the holy spirit who leads me that way. I cannot force anyone to be what I think they should be. I am not their accuser. I strive to give people help and hope. That is my job. You can talk about how bad planned parenthood is, and yet Sarah Palin's daughter is guilty of fornification, too.is fornication ok but murder not. You want to pick and choose, that's not allowed. Don't get me wrong, I would hope no one ever had an abortion and that our community would rally around the women who were considering it. However, Barak Obama has worked in the poor neighborhoods of Chicago and I bet he knows alot of people who didn't get any kind of rallying or help. So don't sit in accusation of a place you have never been. Don't condemn but do something that helps. Stop being selfish and maybe sacrifice a little. Or maybe you just want to follow McCain's prosperity forem. What do you consider your treasure trully.

Thank you so much for your comment. I agree 100%. I think everyone else does too but they are too prideful to admit their error in judgement. We forget that America is not the only place in the world where there are people; innocent people. But many "patriots" believe that we are the best and therefore above all others and our lives matter more. Well most of our lives, as long as you dont count the 100's of millions who are ignored and struggling here in our own country. Our leaders want to act like we are always the good guys and that everyone against us is evil. Before we can truly be reformed we must "take the plank out of our own eye". Recognize we have our own evils as well. If we don't recognize that, we call God a liar.

Jesus tells us specifically to do as the Good Sumaritan did. It has nothing to do with economics, it has to do with your heart. It is easy to comdemn a person, it is not easy to give of yourself. Don't pick and choose convenient scriptures. Lets do all of what God said.

You know what, I agree..you make a point. It says to love the world, not be of the world. Big difference..

i hope your doing well financially. go ahead and vote for mccain you moron!!!

Jesus is for niether side. At the wall of Jerico it was ask are you for us or against us. The reply was no.
The poor are to be taken care of, but... there is no Biblical connection that this care takes place through government. To take care of the poor through government you get only .30 of help out of each dollar. If I can depend on the government I don't need to depend on God.
Right to life is a "grave" issue for those who stand on the same platform as those who oppose it. If you support death you harbor in that camp. Somehow we think God is okay with this based on our "feelings". God is always the same, He never changes and He is not a respector of persons.
We place much too high a value on education and no value on revelation. When you mix education with religion you get philosophy. Philosophy is what most Christians experience as their religion. Man has lost revelation and tried to replace it with education the the vehicle of education. But still comes up short of real wisdom. Like all blogs if you read all the statements you can see that Christianity at large is confused, all over the map, out and out wrong on most issues no matter what side of the track they stand. Much milk and little meat. Most information is taught or caught not revealed. Most of what is said you can tell is organicly wrong to those who read and study and show themselves approved.

Poverty is a moral issue. It's not just about "economics", as some people seem to think. As Christians, we have moral obligations to ensure that the lives and souls of the 15 million American children who are currently living in poverty are saved. Obama will look after our children. Obama will make this country a place where more women will choose to bring their child into this world. I believe with my heart and soul that Jesus is with Obama. Abortion is a symptom of poverty and libertine ideology and Obama stands against both.

so, how is it that God is always labeled conservative. And really, I am pro-life. However, I am pro-life all the way around. I do not believe in capital punishment, or in sacrificing lives in wars. you could call me a pacifist. I would say that Jesus was this way. I know you are probably thinking of the time he cast people our of the temples, but He never killed anyone. Conservatives confuse me. they make a huge deal out of abortion, but don't talk about all of these other people that are suffering from disease and war. Did you know that 2 million people die every year from tuberculosis. THIS IS CURABLE. It would cost about $15 for the medications through the world health organization. I agree that abortion is a horrible thing, however, we have had a pro-life president for 3 of the past 4 and it has not made any difference.

I know that we will never all agree on the president, and that is fine.
I think it pretty much boils down to two views.

Some care more for the unborn.
Some care more for the world.

I choose to care more for the world. (jphn 3:16 for God so loved the WORLD)


thanks

I agree with you 100%. I cannot see this country moving all the way to the left with a person who says he is a christian and not act like a christian. I will continue to pray for our country,our troops and our families.

God Bless,
Pete

Just curious... being that you don't think that Barack Obama acts like a Christian, do you think that John McCain acts like a Christian?

We are to always follow the Word in the direction given from Genisis - Revelation. Loving the person but hating the sin.

We are to always follow the Word in the direction given from Genisis - Revelation. Loving the person but hating the sin.--you say we are to follow the Word...but where in the Word does it say 'love the person, hate the sin'? this idea came from Gandhi, and I'm sure he would just love to hear that Christians are now using this to condemn the ones who Jesus frequently associated with.

I would rather vote for a man who ACTS like a Christian, rather than one who just says he is as McCain does. McCain left his first (model) wife after she was disfigured in a car accident, married Cindy, the heiress, who he had been flying around the country to see while he was married, a month after his divorce became final. To me, that is not in any way Christian. Make no mistake, McCain is for McCain. He denigrated Obama's work at community centers - again, I would prefer a President who knows what it's like living in America without money and cares about everyone - that is WAY MORE LIKE JESUS!
Amen.

reynaldo, u say obama opposes marriage between a man and a woman? did u mean to say that. if so, back it up with some data. i have seen/heard sen. obama say that although he is against gay marriage, he does support common law right for gay couples; meaning eg. if a member of a gay couple is dying in a hospital the partner should have the same rights as a marriage partner: visitation and the like. he has said the reason for his stance is because the word marriage implies "the sacred bond between a man and a woman ordained by God." is that not loving the sinner as we are commanded to do?

Well said! Why vote for Obama?

http://doortoriver.com/blog/2008/10/why-obama/

"If my daughters...make a mistake [like getting pregnant], I don't want them to be punished with a baby." -Barrack Obama...

Here are some moral and economic tie in subjects... mostly moral...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhYampIl7A

First off, a little respect for our new leader. Are we not to PRAY for them.

He does not support abortion, if you'd open your ears, for a change and truly listen to what he has to say, then maybe you would not be so quick with your responses. He has said, time and time again, it's a moral issue, between the woman, her church and GOD. I've always said the same thing. We pray for her to make the proper choice. Since when is it up to us to decide. Does the Lord not give a choice as to whether we come to him or not. He does not force himself on anyone. John McCain ALSO supports abortion under three circumstances; rape, incest and if the mothers life is in danger. Did you ever question him though, of course not. The really funny thing about this. It's always just ONE issue and as disgusting as abortion is, we can't "tell" someone what they can or cannot do. We need to be looking at the entire picture, all the issues, not just ONE. Would you want someone to end up in some back alley, hurting not only the baby, but herself as well. Does anyone ever think of that. Let's say you force her to have the baby. She's now angry about it, since she may have been raped, she then has the baby and now she resents the child. What's your wise answer now? So now, we have a child born out of rape, not LOVE and the Mom, who you enforced your rules upon, has the baby and treats it like dirt. Are you willing to take the child in, or I should say, the MANY CHILDREN whose Mother's did not want them. Well, are you?

What do you call bombing the tar out of countries that never ATTACKED AMERICAN SOIL! That's murder as well, but I know, you'll just say it's "foreign policy". That's called hypocrisy, in case you were not aware.

Second, the BOTH of them feel, in regards to gay rights, a "union" is okay, they should be allowed visitation rights if their loved one is in the hospital, BUT he has said to them, when they posed the question to him, that in his heart, marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN. I don't know what/who you've been listening to, probably some smear tape on him, or maybe it's just fear on your part?

The question you should be asking yourself is, how can McCain be a "Christian" and want to rush into yet another unnecessary war without TALKING TO PEOPLE. My husband got so upset the other day, someone on my fb profile said Jesus was "into" war. How on earth can anyone claim they are Christian and say JESUS is into war and GUNS! Jesus was all about PEACE and LOVE and helping your fellow human being, something that does not fit into "their" agendas. They can honestly say they have a clean conscience? I guess in their eyes, they do.

You should get your facts straight before getting people upset, all that does is set you up for a fall. The "Republican" party did that throughout their entire "smear" campaign; lies, causing race riots, giving false hope/promises, saying one thing, then coming up with something entirely different a few days later. All the makings of real bang up, stellar Christians. Surely I would think the American people are a lot smarter then to fall for it all over again. Oh wait, they are in fact a lot smarter and they proved it on the 4th OF NOVEMBER, 2008! America finally GREW up and showed the entire world, we're not such small minded bigots after all.

We DO want change, we DO NOT want war or guns, we want to come together as ONE NATION, and we surely don't want to CONTINUE to MURDER any more INNOCENT children and adults as well! We want to help the POOR, just like JESUS says we're to do. Seems to me, you should be pointing this comment at someone else, surely not at Barack. Oh yeah, get to know Obama's policies first before spewing lies and second guessing what he stands for. Can you honestly say the "other one" had any real plan? All he did was slam Barack in debates and copy every thing he said.

Reynaldo,
"It is true that christians are to help the poor, however the gospel never places economics before morals."

Actually, the Bible says people will go to heaven or hell based on if Christians help the poor or not (sheep and goats in Mt 25). So you could argue this is more important than beliefs on abortion or same-sex marriage.

I am completely shocked and amazed that any person claiming to be Christian (evangelical or not) would vote for a candidate who supports the killing of an unborn child. We're talking about murder here, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what his other beliefs may or may not be. The simple fact that he supports planned parenting is repulsive, and should make any son or daughter of Christ sick to their stomach. I know I am. Please, someone in this "Christian's for Obama" group explain to me how this is justified. Please! I beg you.

I am completely shocked and amazed that any person claiming to be Christian (evangelical or not) would vote for a candidate who supports the killing of an unborn child.

I am completely shocked and amazed at that any person, claiming to be a Christian or not, does not have the ability to see beyond one issue.

Oh... and what anti-abortion measures has John McCain supported lately?

Wait... I forgot - it depends on the day.

And further... what have the Republicans done to reduce abortions lately?

Dave, Again, you are just bullying people. McCain has the record of being against abortion. Obama however likes to tap dance when questioned about this issue. I believe his answer was "above my pay grade"? I did not know that you had to seek higher in regards to right and wrong. Again abortion was established in the first place by democrats to rid the populace of blacks, Hispanics, and those of lower education. You all are so good though that you have since spun it into a "womens rights" issue. When are people going to question where these policies came from? I'm sorry for you Dave people who read this will go and reference and will see the light and know the truth. The truth however is what the Democratic party does not want you to know. And I did not know that is was a partisan issue in regards to the number of pregnancies, that is another democratic talking point, how about its a family issue, not the government. Although with the sexual revolution in the 60's that was from the democrats that led to a large number of pregnancies and a loss of morality, so thanks again democrats.

McCain has the record of being against abortion.

Kind of. Do your research. He has wavered on the issue for years. But you didn't answer my question. What is he going to do to reduce abortions, and reduce the "need" for abortions?

abortion was established in the first place by democrats to rid the populace of blacks, Hispanics, and those of lower education.

This is a blatant and outright lie. Abortion has been around for thousands of years. Good try though.

The simple fact that he supports planned parentingPlanned parenting? I support planned parenting also.

It is much better than unplanned parenting.

You are such a tool, Dave. "Planned Parenting" is the PC label given to Abortion to make it sound more acceptable. But I'll go ahead and play with you here. What is this unplanned parenting you speak of? Selfish, pleasure seeking couples more interested in getting off than considering the consequences, and then when the inevitable result of sex occurs, run away from the responsibility of their actions by assassinating an unborn child... all in the name of comfort.

So you tell me now, what possible issues, accomplishments or promises could a man make to justify his belief that killing a child to keep the parents comfortable?

You are such a tool, Dave.

A tool? People still use that word?

And let me guess - name calling fits into your Christian box of what is right and wrong?

What is this unplanned parenting you speak of? Selfish, pleasure seeking couples more interested in getting off than considering the consequences, and then when the inevitable result of sex occurs, run away from the responsibility of their actions by assassinating an unborn child... all in the name of comfort.

Sure... if you want it to be that. But wouldn't "planned parenting" be better than that? :)

So you tell me now, what possible issues, accomplishments or promises could a man make to justify his belief that killing a child to keep the parents comfortable?

How about things like actually taking care of children after they are born? How about things like actually caring about reducing the need for abortions? How about things like not spending billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives for a needless war? I could go on, but you do not really care.

And you didn't answer my other questions, which are probably much more relevant.

Which anti-abortion measures is McCain in favor of today? Will that change tomorrow when he is talking to moderates?

And what has the Republican Party done to reduce abortions?

How about things like actually taking care of children after they are born? How about things like actually caring about reducing the need for abortions? How about things like not spending billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives for a needless war? I could go on, but you do not really care.

This is not an answer to my question. So let's try this again. What has Obama done or promised that would justify his belief that killing an unborn child is ok?

And you didn't answer my other questions, which are probably much more relevant.

Which anti-abortion measures is McCain in favor of today? Will that change tomorrow when he is talking to moderates?

And what has the Republican Party done to reduce abortions?

Where in any of my posts did I say that I supported McCain, or the Republican party for that matter? If you must know, I am an Independent and I don't plan on voting for either candidate. My argument has been focused solely on the fact that this group claims to be Christians in support of Obama, and I want to know what sort of Christian's would support a man who believes killing unborn children is ok.

What has Obama done or promised that would justify his belief that killing an unborn child is ok?

I won't be able to give you any answer that you will be okay with. But I do think that Barack Obama will do a lot more to reduce the need for abortion than other candidates.

I want to know what sort of Christian's would support a man who believes killing unborn children is ok.

What sort of Christians? Christians that decide that there is more than one political issue. Or Christians that decide that just because they disagree with a candidate on one issue does not mean that that they cannot support a candidate. Or Christians who do not believe that abortion is wrong.

Not all Christians fit into your little box.

Dave, You cry about name calling? read some of your comments. And please reply with something other than "huh ummm, or any other combination of letters that make crazy Ape sounds. Dave you are not that smart are you? Geez I will tear you apart each blog, you do not have the intellect to even try me.

Dave, You cry about name calling? read some of your comments.

Please tell me where I have called someone names.

Dave you are not that smart are you? Geez I will tear you apart each blog, you do not have the intellect to even try me.

Yea - I can tell how much you have been tearing me apart. You intellect caused me to tremble in fear.

How many abortions and same sex marriages did the 8 years of George Bush prevented or the 26 years of Mccain as a senator prevented?

Aa born again Christian and Bible believer, I am concerned about the gross distortions and misinformation making the rounds in our circle. WE have been used by those whose actions does not stand the test of Christ's definition of His followers. We let the radio hosts and televangelist herd us like cows for their own self ends and not in the name of Christ.

When did Mcain come out to tell us when he accepted Christ except to tell us he was a believer as a prisoner of war. Anyone (even the satan) will believe under such a circumstance. What policies or programs has he instituted to decrease abortions or gay marriages in his 26 years of public service. Yet, we as Christians are content when he says "I will bve a pro-life president." What non-sense.

If possible, we should not hide under the banner of Christ and claim to do His work as this will damage the Kingdom work.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. If you hate your brother you are guilty of murder. Take time to "sit with the woman at the well" and give her hope and tell her of the forgivness of sins and of the king who loves her. It was the samaritan who helped the man beat up by theivesnot the high and mighty righteous man. It is not a time of accusation but a time to serve. Let our hearts not be hardened but let us be strengthened to do that which is kind and caring and gentle to one another. We are all guilty -- but there is hope for us all. People say that Obama only has the experience of a community organizer and I say that is exactly what we need. Lets join together in hope. I have a dream too. Lots of us do. Lets hold on to that

Shocked are you? Who the heck do you think is getting women pregnant and making abortions necessary? That would be...men. Who are few and far between when at the clinics. Oh sure, maybe they've paid for the abortion but they're not there supporting their act. MAKING ABORTION ILLEGAL DOES NOT MAKE ABORTION GO AWAY. It's been around forever but now women aren't dying or being disfigured from them. And the biggest point - choosing a President on this issue is simply assinine - if a President could make abortion illegal G.W. would have done so...of course he was too busy getting money for himself and his cronies while letting the country go bankrupt.

So are you telling me that Bush sending our troops into Iraq for the purpose of providing leverage to big oil and Hallaburton is christian.. The wool was pulled over your eyes if you voted for Bush. Are you telling me that you voted for Bush based on two issues: Abortion and Gay Marraige. Wow the wool must really be pulled over your eyes because in 8 years, 4 with a republican congress, Bush failed to pass anything that would benfit pro-life or oppose gay marriage. Are you telling me that Bush sending our troops into a false war is not murder. If you look at the stats, more troops were murdered in this war than the number of abortions that took place while Bush has beeni n office. Now if I helped plan a murder of someone, I would go to Jail... but Bush is allowed to continue his presidency while being an accomplace to a Massacre... Bush murdered our soldiers... McCain will contine to do the same..... What is so christian about that...

If you look at the stats, more troops were murdered in this war than the number of abortions that took place while Bush has beeni n office.

Umm... not even close.

I agree with your stance on the war.

But don't come here and make up things that are not even remotely close to being true.

You got me all wrong. I am not a Bush supporter at all. I as saying that if someone wants to call abortion murder but not killing children in Iraq murder than they are hypocrates. You can't pick and choose the laws of you like. As a Christian we are free from the law and are to act from the heart. I am so sorry I miswrote that. I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of choosing McCain because he is anti abortion but yet he is pro about killing and abusing Iraq

I have read many of these comments. Most really good, speakin life and wanting to give scripture to support their reasons for voting for Mr. Obama. I'm also reading how those opposed to abortions and those opposed to war sound just alike. Both have been going on for so many years and will continue while sin abounds in this world. I think most of s are actually forgetting our mandate rom Christ right before he ascended - "Go intoall the world, making disciples of all men." He gave us the example of how to love and proclaim at the same time. He was not different in public than in private. He cared, loved and taught almost unceasingly (only breaking away for prayer). I see none of these characteristics in either of the present candidates. Both have done pubplic service. They have very different viewpoints. One is more likely to lead us to wars, one is more likely tospend our tax dollars on items that are morally reprehensible, such as abortions to name one. War, abortions both killing. Let me just admonish everryone to read Psalms 139:13,14. Murder is wrong no matter which way it goes.

As far as economics go, remember the government controls where your tax money goes. As a follower of Christ I want the money I give to go into fertile soil that will prosper the kingdom of God. I like having that choice. Right now I do, and our family exercises that right. I am nervous about that choice being taken away.

I am a Christian. I am appalled that my fellow Christians think it's okay to send our grown men to war to be killed but then raise an uproar over abortion. Apparently they think it's okay to kill the already grown ones. Maybe they're upset about the abortion thing because they need more to kill later.

Even before the Obama incredible phenomenon began, I was deeply disappointed with spinless pastors and evangelical leaders who did not confront Bush about his blatant lies and murder in Iraq for oil. How is that Christian? His blatant disregard for the elderly through the horrible medicare part D - I worked with the elderly sick and saw first hand how it limited their access to treatment. How was he Christian when he vetoed bills to insure children - oh wait most of the uninsured children were minorities. I am prolife and support Obama for one reason - Bush oversaw the killing of thousands of innocent civilians and lied to the American people saying "God told him to invade Iraq". Republicans are loud on prolife issues but forget to care for the babies once they are born. They claim prolife but happily kill prisoners without giving them a chance to prove their innocence through DNA testing. So at this point - I would not equate the word Republican and Christian - they have prostituted the name of God. I would rather my children have a future that includes them despite their diverse background versus the privilegded rich under republican regimes.

"1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good."
Romans 13:1-4a

As Christians, we are called to a life unlike any other on this earth. Paul urged the brothers in Rome to submit to Caesar, even though he was murdering and torturing them, because God had placed him in that position for His purposes. Paul continues in chapter 9 by saying that it is NEVER our place to challenge the authority and knowledge of our God, because our finite position cannot grasp his ways. I do not support war, or abortion, or shoddy economic policy; but I know that whomever is placed in the role of President has been placed there by God. Even Peter told the men of Jerusalem to respect Herod Agrippa: and he had murdered the disciple James and countless other Christians! Let us not forget that while we submit to the authorties of this earth, we cannot pin all of our hopes for reform on the government's shoulders. That is the ultimate form of crapping out on our obligation: to be the ones Christ called to transform out world. Remember, they will know we are Christians by our LOVE... not who or what we vote for, because our words mean nothing without love (1 Corinthians 13).

Wow, what a confirmation! At service the other night we discussed, not only this very scripture, but pretty much in the context of your explanation. And trust me, I was convicted. This is a message that needs to be stretched across the country. The problem is that even Christians reject the word of God out of pride. It is so clear, to the point, and full of factual information, but at the same time opinion has taken over their mind. Before your message can ever be received, Christians have to stay in their word like never before. Remember Hosea 4:6 says "My people perish for a lack of knowledge".

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Umm... no need to yell.

To be a good Republican/right wing wacko conservative, all you need do is follow our smart timely little primer!

1. You shall lie in the pursuit of goodness.

2. You shall not harm the innocent unless they are opposed to our view.

3. You shall not murder unless there is a greater good to be had.

4. You shall help the needy as long as it does not allow them to actually compete in society.

5. You shall honor those who promote freedom and goodness, our version of freedom and goodness.

6. You shall break the law in pursuit of goodness.

7. You shall not betray others unless it is politically expedient.

8. You shall avenge the acts of evil-doers and enemies of freedom to further our agenda.

9. You shall not place duty above personal desire to do good.

10. You shall seek unlimited good for others and freedom in society but only in accordance to that which we think is best..

I came to this site because as a Christian I am wrestling with whom to vote for in this election, though I'm leaning toward Obama. I have voted Republican in the past, but this year am considering those two very controversial issues of abortion/gay marriage as being ones that people have to account to God for personally. I honestly feel that Christians are pawns in this election. I like some of the Christian character that Sarah Palin has been touted as having, but McCain doesn't even share her views so fervently. I have been impressed with Obama's handling of attacks as someone pointed out, and agree with the Scripture about submitting to our authorities. I pray that God will allow the most qualified man to lead our country (I'm sure He would want a man of righteousness leading). However, based on Scripture, many of our political figures are not living as true Christians, anyway. What's most important is for us to pray for them and their decisions. We are all imperfect humans, but there are still those who may call out "Lord, Lord," and not be known by God. I am sick of the hypocrisy of the Republican party as a whole (or many who call themselves Christians and don't live it out, for that matter). If it's God's will, Obama will be President.

I pray too that God will give us a leader of his choice...But God gave us free will.
That was evident when Bush got elected.
But God will show us what we need to see.
I believe all the news reports lately about McCain's lies is proof of that...

Hey Christians for Obama! I am so relieved that this group exists. I have been seeking the Lord a lot lately to help me with a Christian friend who has attacked me lately, regarding Obama and abortion. I, myself, am prolife but do not believe that people's rights should be taken away, but that we educate people on safe sex practices. I have found it hard to talk to her, my friend, because she only sees the abortion issue as black and white, and will leave no room open for discussion. She has even implied that I am hiding my faith in order to support Obama. I will be honest, as a human, I have been angry about these attacks, but I know that all I can do is pray for God to show me how to respond in a responsible way. Then I found this website!! I agree with those of you who understand that this election is not based solely on the abortion issue, and that there is so much more to what is going on in the world than that. I don't understand how people can say they are Christians when they turn their backs on others. Why is oil and war so much more important that the homeless, jobless, and the average family that is having a hard time adjusting to the rising gas prices, the rising unemployment rate, and the unaffordable health insurance? I just don't understand. I believe that Obama will be good for our nation for all of these reasons. I am proud to say that I am a Christian who loves God, believes that he is always faithfull, and supports Obama for the presidency!
Love to you all! :)

Natalie,
You are not alone in your struggles. I found this site very encouraging.
Mat. 25:40 (the message)
"Then those 'sheep' are going to say, 'Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?' Then the King will say, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me—you did it to me.'

I am relieved to have found a site where my opinion truly matters and others understand my thoughts. As an evangelical christian, I feel I have been attacked lately by "friends" who feel I am anti-christian in my support of Obama. I was nearly in tears after a conversation with a dear friend tonight when he said "How can you call yourself a Christian?"

Why can people not see past the abortion and gay rights issues??? All sins are equal in the eyes of God. Letting people starve, killing people in a worthless war, denying help to the poor and elderly; all of these things are sins.

I think it is time that as christians we accept the truth. The republicans think we are stupid! They think if they say they are anti-abortion or oppose gay marriage or announce that they are christians we will vote for them. I for one refuse to be stupid any longer. I'm voting for Obama and leaving the outcome in God's hands!

Dawn..I guess that's what Jesus meant when he said many will be deceived....
You have to judge a man by his "fruit".
I have seen nothing but greed, gluttony,
hate, killing, and not taking care of your
brother...from this administration.
I feel McCain is more of the same.
If Christians can be so easily fooled when they use these wedge issues to get there vote. Then how easily will they be fooled when the deceiver really comes...

It is interesting to me that many Christians are turning a blind eye to the fact McCain divorced his wife and left his children for a much younger richer woman who he had cheated on his wife with. I took my vows before God and I vowed to honor my husband. Christianity is not based soley on beliefs regarding abortion and same sex marriages. Bush has been in for 8 years and we have not seen a ban on abortion at all, although he did say he would overturn Roe V Wade once he got in office.
I believe God is with Both candidates, but whole heartedly believe Obama is for the people way more than McCain.

As a Christian and as an Iraqi war veteran I’m a bit disconcerted to hear that the war was for big oil and lies. “blatant lies and murder in Iraq for oil.”

I’ve worked closely with the Iraqi military and government officials who were very appreciative for what America has done. They lived under the torture and oppression of Hussein and are grateful for freeing them from the terror of that regime. As an Intelligence Office I’ve learned that intelligence is not always and exact science mistake can be made. After all Bush I and Clinton and the British also though he had WMD. So I wouldn’t call it blatant lies.

Don’t believe everything in the newspaper, they only sell bad news.

As far as McCain goes. One man does not necessarily control ideas of the party. Consider the Republican platform –very pro-life. Will he pick as Supreme Court justices that are strict constructionist or activist judges? I think the former. I don’t believe Obama would do the same.

My vote is for McCain and although I’m not a one issue voter I believe the Republican platform is more inline with Christian teaching than the Democrats.

Well Rick, I personally did not watch the news to get my opinion that Bush was a liar. As a Christian, I was blessed with a certain amount of discernment and I (waaay before the media) could tell that there was something fishy about Bush's story. I actually believed that he staged the ENTIRE thing...just a feeling that I got. The media only collaborated my beliefs. Obama for president! Hands down.

Sorry I could not write back sooner, for some reason I could not get connected to the web site, No doubt my support for McCain prevent me from connecting. ļ

I believe you¡¦re a bit naive to think the whole thing was staged. Did you have all the intelligence the President had? Neither did I, but I had a bit more that the general public and I can attest that Saddum was a viable threat.

But as we approach the end of this election I fear for this country if Obama gets elected ¡§just a feeling that I got.¡¨

We¡¦ll soon see.

Besides abortion and gay marriage...things we know they will not address.
What are the Christian beliefs you are referring to?

Are those not enough?
- Thou shall not murder and
- An abomination to God.

What strike me more important are the activists Supreme and Federal Court Judges that Obama will appoint. They will legislate from the bench, destroying Christian liberties and adjudicating immoral decrees.

If Obama gets elect abortion will be expanded and Christain speech will be declared a hate crime.

Just my fear.

- An abomination to God.

Many things are called an abomination (affairs, trimming one's beard, lying, eating pigs, etc.), but I doubt you think that we should legislate against them.

They will legislate from the bench, destroying Christian liberties and adjudicating immoral decrees.

Do you even know what this means? Name some examples of how these "activist" judges will legislate from the bench.

If Obama gets elect abortion will be expanded and Christain speech will be declared a hate crime.

Huh? Please do not make things up.

Dave, I think you’d would agree that there are different types of laws in scripture, civil, ceremonial and moral. Some only applied to ancient Israel. But moral laws are not time dependent.

Just two example are the supreme court decisions Roe v. Wade and Murray v. Curlett c.1963 They were decided incorrectly, in my view, because activists judges were not strict constructionist view of the constitution as a living document, i.e. privacy and separation of church and state (1st Amend).

Obama would not appoint strict constructionist.

Christian voices expressing homosexuality as a sin have been voice by some in the liberal establishment, as being “hate speech.” I’m sure you have to admit that this is true. Would an Obama administration appoint people with this view in his administration? I believe he would.

I think you’d would agree that there are different types of laws in scripture, civil, ceremonial and moral. Some only applied to ancient Israel. But moral laws are not time dependent.

Absolutely, but that doesn't address my point.

. Would an Obama administration appoint people with this view in his administration? I believe he would.

You bet? So in other words, you don't have anything to support your view that an Obama presidency would to "Christain speech [being declared] a hate crime."

Being that Obama is a Christian, I have a very difficult time believing that he is going to outlaw Christian speech.

McCain …..The Deceiver

I have read so many e-mails saying Obama was the Anti-Christ…..
But what does the Bible really say……..
First of all no where in the Bible does it say the Anti-Christ will be a man.
But the Bible does say.. Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I have just read a news report that the right wing Christians have finally gotten behind McCain.
Why?
Because he is Pro-Life?
Not really…He has the exact same views as Obama on Abortion….He does not believe Roe vs Wade should be overturned…He believes as Obama that we should do everything we can to minimize abortion.
Source: youtube.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7C-2-jtKFM
This is one of many…….
His own words: McCain says he is not "born again" and has not been baptized. He says he is "just a Christian,"
Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1018/p01s06-uspo.html

McCain wrote in his 2005 book "Character is Destiny". It's on page 265. So in essence, this is their response to the question on whether he believes in the literal 6 day creation story or the millions of year’s theory.

"Darwin helped explain nature’s laws. He did not speculate, in his published theories at least, on the origin of life. He did not exclude God, for Whom the immensity of time is but a moment, from our presence. The only undeniable challenge the theory of evolution poses to Christian beliefs is its obvious contradiction of the idea that God created the world as it is in less than a week. But our faith is certainly not so weak that it can be shaken to learn that a biblical metaphor is not literal history. Nature doesn’t threaten our faith. On the contrary, when we contemplate its beauty and mysteries we cannot quiet in our heart an insistent impulse of belief that for all its variations and inevitable change, before its creation, in a time before time, God let it be so, and, thus, it’s many splendors and purposes abide in His purpose.”

I’m sorry, but as Christian I take the bible at its word...The story of Adam and Eve is NOT a metaphor…

McCain believes in Evolution?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ88l5ql_FQ

These are not the beliefs I was taught in Church…..
Why is the Christian Right getting behind him now?
Have Christians sold their souls to the Golden Calf?
Are the fooled by the sheep’s clothing?
Does a man of color with and Arabic name just sound more like the Anti-Christ?
Yet we base our Christian beliefs on a Jew a man of color with a Hebrew name.
I see a sheep…but he is fluffy white with a Cheney Grin……..

I would assert that allowing for Pro-Choice is a viable Christian approach, even if we oppose abortion. We as Christians can force the control to outlaw abortions, but is this really going to work and turn the hearts of the people, and preach the gospel in a way that they believe God loves them and Jesus is the Son of God? Take the case of Romania, where under communism abortion was outlawed. Consider the film that came out last year, 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days. Are we going to push the practice underground and force women who make that choice, however objectionable and immoral, to seek dangerous methods of abortions under fear of reprisal or discovery? If found out, would we put such women in prison and thereby further this cycle? Are we as Christians ready to adopt all the children of drug addicted and poor parents in order to save them? In the early days of the Roman empire, Christians were the ones who adopted and brought up the unwanted children the Romans tossed out in the cold to die. Is a law going to prevent abortion and make us a moral people? Will people then flock to seek Christ because of the wisdom of our law? What about our own faults--rushing into a war killing many military and civilian lives under false premises and failing to admit or repent of our mistakes? If we are guilty of murder as well, how do you expect the pro-choice advocates to think of us as anything but hypocrites? If we condone greed and talk about helping the poor while we block government attempts at doing so in order to preserve our own lifestyle and possessions to the exclusion of others, do we come across as loving, caring people? While many of our churches do reach out to some extent to the poor and needy, if it were not for the government the truth is that many if not most would starve and have no place to live, especially if they are not Christians. Are only certain kinds of murder a sin, but greed is not? Have we not all contributed to the economy meltdown that has not yet done its worse through our support of greed? Did Christ ever say instead of preach the gospel, force the gospel on other people by means of the state, and they will believe? I think the results of that have always been devastating, as history has demonstrated. Unless our own lives and the message we preach are untinged by hypocrisy, and not forced upon people through the state, giving people the choice to accept or not, will it really be good news, untainted by our own private agendas or our Machiavellian methods of manipulating the political process, as is readily apparent in the Karl Rove approach adopted so effectively by the Republican party. (The recent reports on the Republican campaign's falsification of facts and pretense has made it even mor apparent.) Keep in mind that in 2000 these same methods annihilated John McCain in South Carolina, giving Bush the win in the SC primary, but they are now supporting him. Is this hypocrisy or not? Do we not care about these methods? What about the ninth commandment--I guess it is O.K to break other commandments so that we can impose the ones we like the most, right? In reality, through these means the gospel has been dumped wholesale and has no longer become good news, but another version of jockeying for political power. Just because Obama believes the best political policy is free choice, that does not mean that he favors or promotes abortion, as his own lifestyle and example have shown that he is a very moral person and is faithful in his walk with Christ, even attempting as much as possible keeping the high road in the political contest. To assert otherwise is sheer nonsense. The alternative, which Obama as a Christian definitely sees as more realistic, is one that many Christians may feel uncomfortable with, for then we are not totally in control. We must educate people, effectively convincing them what is right, so that they embrace morality and the love offered by the gospel. In fact, isn't that really what Jesus did? Seems to me that he did not preach the overthrow or a takeover of the Roman government (as many of his would-be followers wanted him to do), but said that his kingdom is not of this world. He never forced anyone to accept him or the gospel through the human political system. Whenever this has been tried throughout history, it has never worked, and has led to much shame in his name. If we succeed therefore in our intentions and win the battle against our political "enemies," we may actually lose the war, as the chief priests learned in Jesus's day.

This may be heading in a different direction, but I was just wondering. If Roe vs Wade was overturned, wouldn't illegal abortions and deaths and mutilations continue? If a woman really wants to abort a baby, won't she find a way? Wouldn't another abortion law have to be passed to prevent these future illegal abortions? I agree that until more women find Christ, this will always be an issue, and not the basis of determining who should lead our country.

Things will go back to how they were before Roe v Wade, it's estimated over a million abortions a year were performed then, remember, even then it wasn't illegal in all states and if Roe v Wade were overturned it would revert to what ever laws are in place in the individual states. Even in the states where it was illegal women pursued illegal abortions or sought to induce miscarriages through the use of various herbs or medications. Laws do not change the hearts of people, prayer does.

The lesson of ancient Israel that we see from the Old Testament is that even with the most righteous laws this does not mean that the nation will or ever can be a righteous nation without a change in the heart. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount recast the law as a moral "code" in the hearts of men and women, which went against the order of the political system of the day, but did not seek to replace it with other man-made laws. His kingdom, we tend to forget, is "not of this world." The questions surrounding abortion are complex morally and socially, and with respect to personal situation, individual liberty and free moral choice. As history shows, attempts to govern morality often leads to the immoral and unjust results. This is neither to approve nor to condemn the practice of abortion, but only to point out that because of the unique issues surrounding abortion each individual must bear the responsibility of grappling with these issues and the specific situation in which this may be in some cases the lesser of two evils. With respect to Old Testament laws of divorce and other moral laws, it is a good thing that they are no long administered by the state in that way or we would all be in trouble! To pass a uniform law or amendment would not turn the hearts of this nation into a righteous nation as some believe. I would bring up the subject of rushing into wars on false pretense, or executing repentant born-again Christians convicted of murder while pardoning political cronies, but then I am afraid that I would be "no longer preachin' but meddlin'." Yep, I guess laws alone cannot dictate morality or, for the matter, justice.

It saddens me how politically uneducated so many "Christians" are. Jesus would agree with this statement; love those most unprotected, children included. I've been in college for 6 plus years now and you'd be saddened to see how most view us, Christians; no wonder they don't believe. You cannot take a few issues and denounce Obama. McCain wants offshore drilling; have you not followed this issue? I heard of it in school. THe natives follow the elk migration, for survival. The elk have been reproducing far less, since the pipelines were placed in their path to the oceanic shores, in the brief summers of Alaska. This is destroying Alaska's ecology! How much more biomass must we abuse and consume, while millions starve? I see very few of McCain's (Republican) positions helping this nation. More importantly I see very few of McCain's positions improving our nations character throughout the world. Christians are not seeing the root evils. We need to be the peace makers. We need to lead, be the light, consume less (buy a smaller car, turn lights off, have a garden, GET RID OF YOUR CAR and BIKE...) We need to educate the inner city kids like we educate the burbs. We're decades from equality in education. The war was not God's will' it was the USA's (to secure oil for a few more decades; YES it's that SIMPLE). Knowing that, what should you (Christian) do? Answer: plan your driving, drive less, sell one of those cars, walk, move to a community where you can walk to and fro. Stop killing and start loving. This is what my Christian and Catholic friends have done. We're not all voting for McCain because of our faith; we're voting for Obama because of Jesus.

God does not bless a Christian anymore then any other individual; look in the Bible...it's there. God does not bless America or any other nation more then another; that is an old testament carryover that is polluting our hearts. How do the Iraqi mother's view America? We cannot use this planet for USA's personal gain.

I don't want a bigger government, BUT you honestly believe that the affluent, rich, American's are giving back enough of what has been bestowed upon them? No, it's one of the original sins, greed, excess. I feel government needs to force, enforce the redistribution of wealth, education, and quality health care because those that have are not willingly sharing these things. God called Israel to redistribute every decade; would that mess up the world. Obama is a lesser evil, in my opinion. Stop looking at a few issues and see the whole; see the bigger picture. Republicans are making Christians look bad and this Christian is not going into the light quietly. Seek truth, not hype. Where are your cheap goods coming from, who's soil and water has it destroyed, who's children are maimed... We Christian's need to THINK has God commands, and Jesus; we need to stop being hypocrites. Love stops abortion, not laws. Love stops injustice, not laws. Worldly laws will ultimately fail; God's laws can never fail.

Last comment: I discovered Obama in a congressional memo dated some years ago. He was addressing congress and others about the impact of mass media on families and the greater US culture; how it was destroying family communication and making family life more difficult, specially in the arena of sex education. Our kids are learning sex from TV, not at the dinner table. Our media is clearly not a good portrayal of most US families (I hope you agree). Obama explained his efforts to communicate with his children, discuss what they've been hearing and seeing, often over dinner together. Sounds like a Christian family, combating the world (NBC, ABC, CBS, Werner,MTV), combating the all too often idol of TV.

I am so tired of the disputes about
the Democratic ticket being christians! I, for one would never question what's in one's heart - Only God really knows. I am voting for Obama - I think all people are responsible for their own decisions when we get to heaven and answer to God. I do not believe in POLITICAL PLOYS. I believe Obama is a christian!!!Being a republican/democrat does not get you to heaven. What gets me is the republican party continues to throw an untruthful stand that they are the one's that are closest to the Christian belief - They can talk the talk - but not walk the walk. Like I said, this is a POLITICAL PLOY - one that is very DISHONEST. If they are against (abortion) don't you think they would have at least fought to get this changed in our country - They had 4 years with Bush, Sr and 8 with Bush Jr and the 6 last years in congress to change that. They only talk about this during elections???? - Why have they not done something about it??? It is only for political votes - is that not deceitful?

Is Obama a true Christian?

Does he really believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ? Can Obama pass the Jesus Test?

Take the Jesus Test to find out if you are a true Christian at http://www.sentforlife.com/jesus.html

I am also being told or implied "How can I vote for Obama and consider myself a Christian?" I have withdrawn from my prayer group who are unified. Over the past week I have read an article from the New York Times about gambling and MCCain and the Indian Reservations. Then the next day The Rolling Stones Article about McCain, those articles cinched any doubts in my mind, and Sarah is an embarassment. My impressions about Obama originated from reading his two Books. He is a lawyer and professor of Constitutional law. An amazing man who we will be blessed to have as our leader. As will the rest of the World delight in a man of stature and widom and a sound mind. He is a miracle for our nation at this time. The site, www.abillionforchrist.com will give some future insight from the past. Look under prophesy USA.

No where in the Obama campaign does it say it supports gay marriage or abortion. Just the opposite... Obama/ Biden say they DON'T support gay marriage... so where is your proof Reynoldo Crespin?

I am a very strong Christian but I believe Obama is better to run this nation. McCain will kill our men in Iraq for years to come. Obama will pull out and doesn't support infanticide! Wise up people... McCain= Bush and the next 4 years will be equivilant to the last 8. Don't make America suffer because you vote on homosexuality and abortion which are decided by state...not the President! Vote on issues that affect you as an American!!! Vote on the economy (with McCain will kill us all on), the war( which McCain will keep us in regardless of how many innocent American lives are lost), education, and taxes (which McCain will increase on the middle tax and lower for the rich and the oil companies). McCain's plan is to give oil companies 4 billion dollars in tax cuts...which could be going to the American people for health care and education.. You want to call McCain a "maverick" then let's see him doing the things Barack Obama is doing!!! OBAMA/BIDEN 2008!!!!

The war in Iraq is a just war (both Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello). And we will eventually need to get out but we will have some troop presents there for a long time, just as we do in hundreds of countries aroung the world.

The economoy will be up and down and wars will come and go but what will last will be the decision we made for Christain priciples and righousness.

Don’t be deceived Obamas will diminish Christian liberties by appoint activist judges that change the way this country view Christian morality.

The war in Iraq is a just war

I don't believe that there are many "just" war proponents that actually believe the war in Iraq means "just" war standards.

Don’t be deceived Obamas [sic] will diminish Christian liberties.

Name one Christian liberty that Obama will "diminish."

The historical view of “Just War Axiom”

Jus ad bellum – a war fought for a just cause, weather you believe in WMD or not you do have to admit that thousands suffer and were tortured under Saddam and with him gone thousand are saved.

Jus in bello - Once war has begun directs how combatants are to act. As an Iraq’s war vet I know this is true. US forces go well out of its way not to cause collateral damage to property and protect civilian live sometime at the expense of their own.


With those though I believe the war in Iraq is a just war.


Obama will appoint activists judges that will interpret the constitution a living document thus making the constitution believe in anything they want. Sort of an indirect means of dimishing Christian values (i.e. Roe v. Wade and Murray v. Curlett -1963)

With those though I believe the war in Iraq is a just war.

Fair enough, but a very strong argument could be made that your are wrong about the first point.

Further, I am not sure that there is such a thing as a "just" war, but that discussion is for a different time. Sort of an indirect means of dimishing Christian values But that is not what you said, at all. You said it would diminish "Christian liberties," not "Christian values."

A very insightful article by Frank Schaeffer, who is a pro-lifer, as to why he supports Barak Obama as president can be found at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/frank-as-a-former-pro-lif_b_119435.html. I cannot agree more with this evangelical Christian who is of the highest integrity.

As a Christian I find much of the current debate insulting. Here is the deal: McCain is simply the lesser evil, not a great choice or even an inspiring one. That being said... abortion is a terrible insult to God, in the days of Ezekiel the Israelites sacrificed their children to Molech for the purposes of economic well being, now we commit the ultimate sacrilege and sacrifice them in the womb, the holy of holies. These modern children are killed for the same reason economics. God judged Israel for Molech worship and not keeping the sabbath, think He will spare us? How about the race card? Most planned parenthood clinics are in low income communities. Per capita more African American babies are aborted than any other group. Planned parenthood activities are tantamount to committing genocide on the black race. To those of you who are making the war the primary issue, I have this to say as a soldier: We have lost to date less soldiers in OIF/OEF than the French lost in one fifteen minute period of the battle of Verdun, or than we lost on the worst day of Antietam. (Civil war battle) Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of war. Waging war is a function of government given by God to humanity in the Noahic covenant along with capitol punishment. If you want to make the economy the primary issue I can understand, but realize more taxation wont put more food on your table. Now thats out of the way what I want to hear is one good reason other than "change" I should vote for Obama. Anyone plan on telling me what changes he has in mind? I just read his website, I can't seem to find his platform...

but realize more taxation wont put more food on your table.

And what tells you (other than John McCain) that Obama will be raising your taxes?

Anyone plan on telling me what changes he has in mind? I just read his website, I can't seem to find his platform

Huh? Then you sure didn't look very hard.

Try this.

As for the abortion issue... please do tell how John McCain will reduce abortions.

Love they neighbor as thyself.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Beware false prophets.

Gods hand is on our nation as long as we live in peace with each other. It is Gods authority to condemn our neighbors, not ours. God is love.

This nation was founded on many principles, one being to create a unique place for anyone to live free of religious persecution...a place where human beings could live in peace to choose their own religious beliefs.

Injecting religion into government endangers our entire system of government.

Senator Obama has the Christian heart, living as a Christian in faith and deed. McCain is not. It is that simple. True Christians, deep with faith, understand there is no choice this election.

I will also add that we believe it is a sin to judge others. It is a sin to judge the actions of others.

We are against abortion, not the choice. The choice is sacred and between a woman and God. No man has the authority of God. God gave man and woman free choice.

Those who judge women who choose to have abortions are sinners.

It is Gods job to judge them, not ours.

Hi everyone

I just wanted to give all you Christians something to think about. I hope that you will all seriously take the time to really consider this.

In supporting Obama, I don't care how any of you rationalize it, you are not and I repeat NOT standing on the side of God.(Before you get upset let me explain why that is)

First we all have to come to the understanding that the bible is God's word.

Second we need to believe that it is vitally important to stand on God's side. Read Ezekiel 22:30-31
Here God explains that he looked for someone to build the wall of righteousness that guards the land and stand in the gap so that he would not have to destroy the land. Think about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now let's discuss standing on God's side.

1) Abortion: God said that he knew you before the womb. He also said it is against his will to kill.(6th commandment). Even in the case of rape, I don't believe it is okay to take the life of the fetus. We need to use those unfortunate circumstances that test our faith, to show that we believe that God is in control and that he will make good out of the worst situations. Trust in him.

2) Marriage: Marriage was designed by God between a man and a woman. This is the reason he did not make two Adams in the garden. He is a God of order and has placed opposite gender for his specific purpose. (read Romans 1:18 - 32)Allowing gay marriage is against God's will.

3)According to Obama, (Let's spread the wealth around). Government taxes are to be paid because all forms of authority are established by God and he said that we should pay taxes because government workers have to be paid.(Romans 13: 1-7)Taxes should not be used to spread the wealth around. According to (2Thessalonians 3:6-14) Paul spcifically stated that those unwilling to work will not get to eat. He commanded such people to stop meddling in other people's business and work to earn their own living. He did however encourage those who are working to never get tired of doing good. We should give freely to the less fortunate but it is not the government's responsibility to take from one group who is working to earn their living and give it to someone else. If you believe that the rich should give you the money they earn then you are breaking the 10th commandment, Do not covet your neighbor's belongings.

4) War in Iraq. God has blessed many wars throughout the Bible, and although I believe that it was the wrong war to fight, we are already there. Now we need to do the right thing. We cannot abandond the Iraqi people right as they are about to make a difference and alow their country to slip into something far worst. Iran could invaded this country with their radical ideology and we would have to go back there again in a far worst situation than before.

The important thing is that God does not change his mind. He is the same today as he is tomorrow. We need to choose a side and that side should be to follow God.
Abortions, gay marriages, spreading the wealth around is not God's side. If you are not on his side on the issues, don't fool yourself, you are against him. To me, Obama is a great speaker and he says the things the world wants to hear, but remember thw world and God are in total opposition so choose wisely and I hope this will convict your heart to stand on God's side.

Thanks for listening and read those verses.

First off, I need to point out that we are not living in a theocracy.

Second off, lets address some of your points:

Abortion: God said that he knew you before the womb.

God also ordered a lesser punishment for causing the death of an unborn baby than he does for murder.

But even with that said, I would like to know what John McCain (who I presume you support) is going to do to reduce the number of abortions.

Allowing gay marriage is against God's will.

Barack Obama is not a supporter of gay marriage, so what is your point?

Government taxes are to be paid because all forms of authority are established by God and he said that we should pay taxes because government workers have to be paid.(Romans 13: 1-7)

Huh? That is some pretty lousy exegesis if you really think that passage is saying that we should only pay taxes to pay government workers.

According to (2Thessalonians 3:6-14) Paul spcifically stated that those unwilling to work will not get to eat.

And he was specifically speaking to church. This passage has little relevance to government policy.

If you believe that the rich should give you the money they earn then you are breaking the 10th commandment, Do not covet your neighbor's belongings.

No. No. No. Taxation has nothing to do with the 10th commandment. At all.

I also find it interesting that you ignore passages such as Matthew 20:1-16, where everyone got paid the same wage, regardless of the amount of work they performed.

War in Iraq. I believe that it was the wrong war to fight,

So we should support the person who a - supported the war from the beginning, and b - is more likely to get the U.S. into another similar situation.

We cannot abandond the Iraqi people right as they are about to make a difference and alow their country to slip into something far worst.

No one is talking about abandoning the Iraqi people at all. Further, you do know that the Iraqi people want the U.S. to be out of the country, right?

Vote for him if you want, but do not pretend to be a Christian person of faith

Do not pretend that you are God, and you get to decide who is a Christian. And do not pretend that there is only one issue to vote in this election.

And I have deleted your other comments that say the exact same thing. Don't spam my blog.

So why Obama? He is NOT a supporter of Christian views.

Funny, you keep talking of viewS, yet you only mention one.

There is more than one issue in this country. Sorry you don't understand that, or are unwilling to acknowledge that.

You honestly think that the killing of an unborn human, created in God's own image, held sacred by Him, and blessed into existence by his love needs to be coupled with another issue? Okay, for argument's sake, gay marriage, natural law and all its freedom's worldwide, social and moral decay, need more?

Look, like I said before the editor deemed it spam, vote as often for him as you want -- Dem's usually do -- but do NOT call yourself a Christian person of faith. You just can't do that and be intellectually honest.

Thanks for your concern over my "inability" to point out other issues. As a Christian, abortion still wins out. I am not surprised you don't see that.

Dave -- Christianity really demands more than you are giving. I'll actually try to pray for you, but it is difficult. Too many dead babies on the list before you.

You honestly think that the killing of an unborn human, created in God's own image, held sacred by Him, and blessed into existence by his love needs to be coupled with another issue? Okay, for argument's sake, gay marriage

Yea... I honestly believe that there is more than one issue Christians should be concerned about. And opposing gay marriage isn't one of them.

natural law and all its freedom's worldwide, social and moral decay, need more?

Ah... natural law. Right. I forgot - one candidate is for it and one is against it? And social and moral decay? What does that have to do with the candidates? I mean, one has been loyal to his one and only wife, the other? Not so much...

Look, like I said before the editor deemed it spam

Let me explain something to you. When you post several comments on one blog thread, all saying essentially the exact same thing, that is called spam.

vote as often for him as you want -- Dem's usually do

Yea... I am sure they do.

but do NOT call yourself a Christian person of faith.

I am sorry... does "BA" stand for God? I didn't think so. Don't come on here and pretend that you are the arbiter of who is and is not a Christian, ESPECIALLY based on how someone votes.

Thanks for your concern over my "inability" to point out other issues. As a Christian, abortion still wins out. I am not surprised you don't see that.

At least be honest, and say that it wins out FOR YOU. And I am not surprised that you have an inability to think about other issues.

Dave -- Christianity really demands more than you are giving.

Umm... you have absolutely no idea about what I am giving, so do not pretend that you do.

I'll actually try to pray for you, but it is difficult.

Not sure why it is difficult, but if you get around to it, I will always take more prayer. It can't hurt!

Too many dead babies on the list before you.

Really? Why do the dead babies need prayer? Are they in purgatory or something?

Dave --

BA stands for Bad Attitude toward faux Christianity. God gave me the brains to recognize your ridiculousness. So, blame Him when you're not busy pretending to be Christian. By the way, line by line breakdowns don't make you look any smarter - just defensive...as I assume a fake Christian would be. Everyone is very impressed with "your blog", it is just becoming increasingly apparent that you are not a real Christian as you write it. And that's okay. Just be honest with yourself, if no one else. You will probably sleep better at night. I hope, for your sake, you either truly find God or a really good night's sleep. I don't believe you are really familiar with either right now.

BA stands for Bad Attitude toward faux Christianity.

Well... bad attitude sure is right. But it would be better if it were "Bad Ass toward faux Christianity." That would give you a little more credibility behind your ravings.

God gave me the brains to recognize your ridiculousness.

How nice of God. I guess he appointed you the arbiter of who is and isn't a Christian, too.

So, blame Him when you're not busy pretending to be Christian.

Yup... I am pretending. You caught me. How did you guess?

By the way, line by line breakdowns don't make you look any smarter - just defensive

Oh well... well someone pretends to have the ability to make a claim of another person's Christianity, it should be defended against. And I am not trying to look smarter.

as I assume a fake Christian would be.

Yup... I am fake, because I disagree with you. Because you are now God.

Everyone is very impressed with "your blog", it is just becoming increasingly apparent that you are not a real Christian as you write it

Not trying to impress everyone. And you know, just because you say something over, and over, and over, and over again does not make it true.

. Just be honest with yourself, if no one else. You will probably sleep better at night.

I am honest, with myself and others. And I sleep perfectly fine at night.

I hope, for your sake, you either truly find God

Well... your hopes have come true!

I don't believe you are really familiar with either right now.

And I don't believe that you have a clue what you are taking about.

Dave --

You are fun. You certainly don't sound maniacal at all. And as I said, line by line breakdowns do NOT even remotely make you seem obsessive. I don't think, anyway. Back to the point, why do you think it is okay to murder children in the womb?

And as I said, line by line breakdowns do NOT even remotely make you seem obsessive.

Not sure why you are so focused on my replying line by line. I believe that it makes it easier to follow. And obsessive? Have you read what you are writing? Over and over and over and over again? I have asked you to stop, and you continue, on my blog. Yet it is me who is obsessive? Right...

Back to the point, why do you think it is okay to murder children in the womb?

And this is exactly why 1, this isn't a debate, and 2, i want you to go away. You make such absurd comments that are not remotely true.

It has galled me for years that so many Christians think abortion and gay marriage are the only two issues that any American Christian should ever consider. Yes, these are very, very important issues and I won't underplay them, but they are not the be-all and end-all of everything.

What about adultery, a central issue for Christian Republicans during the Clinton administration? John McCain is an adulterer. He treated his first wife like garbage and threw her aside without remorse. Funny that no one in the Christian community seems to want to bring up adultery now that it's laid upon a Republican candidate. One of the running jokes last year was wondering what the Christian right would do since the Republican race had come down to two adulterers (McCain and Giuliani) and a Mormon (Romney).

What about helping the widows and orphans, a central teaching of Jesus that the Republicans are horrified by? Remember, Isaiah states that Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT destroyed because of homosexuality. They were destroyed because they didn't provide for the needy. It's in the Bible in black and white. Yet the Republicans do everything they possibly can to take money out of the hands of poor people and put it in the pockets of greedy politicians and corporate executives.

Third, the war in Iraq was based upon Bush's desire to finish a job his dad couldn't. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and no links to Al Qaeda. There was no presence of Al Qaeda in Iraq until after the American invasion. Despite Saddam Hussein being a Satan-deluded despot, there was no reason for Iraq to get sucked into the war on terror. Trillions of dollars and thousands of American and Iraqi lives later, radical Islam is more alive and well in Iraq than at any time prior to 9/11. The Republicans marched behind Bush in Nazi lockstep, as did some of the Democrats, but it's time for all of this to end. Let Iraq take care of Iraq. It's been five years, and if they cannot sustain their own country by now, perhaps they do not need a country of their own. The U.S. can't be the policeman of the world any longer, yet McCain wants to leave our troops there indefinitely. One more indelible strike against him.

I don't think that Obama is the perfect answer to America's dilemmas, not by a long shot. But we will not easily survive another four years of Bush doctrine in politics, economics, international relations, social issues or anything else. And despite trying to distance himself from Bushism, McCain is too big a Republican clone to lead us anywhere else.

Has anyone seen a child slowly die of dysentery? Has anyone held a child who was starving to death?

None of you can impose your will on another person but all of you can save the life of at least one of the 6 million children who die each year of starvation.

15 million American children live in poverty. McCain hasn't uttered a word about what he'd do to make right this national disgrace.

An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world (second only to Latvia).

Shame on you all you believers who let our spiritual guiders and political leaders ignore this fact.

In the last 8 years, what have they done to save the lives and souls of our children. What have you done?

God is with Obama, as I am.

There's no place in heaven for hypocrites.

Please take a look at this article. It will give you a good insight into how we as christians must vote.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/Huntley-Brown-Obama.htm

I read it already, and no, it doesn't give much insight into how Christians "must" vote.

It gives insight into one man's opinion on a couple of issues.

Like a blog?

Like a blog?

Actually, no, it wasn't anything like a blog.

Good try though.

I don't know if this has come up before, but if you go to the website: www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics, there is a very intelligently written piece on the 6 criteria that Christians should consider when electing our leaders.

http://americaschoicenow.com/

This is the main reason why I do not believe that you can be a Christian and vote for Obama. I have heard the argument that he is pro-life and that is bologni. This is a video of him saying it straight from his own mouth that he is pro abortion, which is an abomination in the sight of God.

he is pro abortion, which is an abomination in the sight of God.

Hmm... I would love to see that Bible verse...

Let's go Old Testament here:

"God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27).

"Be fertile and multiply" (Genesis 1:28)

"If men strive, and hurt a women with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life" (Ex.21:22-23).

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15)

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)

"Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17)

A little New Testament here:

"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10).

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (Galatians 1:15)

"This is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another, unlike Cain who belonged to the evil one and slaughtered his brother" (1 John 3:11-12)

And another sojourn back to Old Testament for what I would consider a pretty fair reproach of the murder of innocent humans in the womb (unless you want to parse words, in which case reread above):

"Trample my courts no more! Bring no more worthless offerings…Your festivals I detest…When you spread out your hands, I close my eyes to you; though you pray the more, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood! Wash yourselves clean…learn to do good. Make justice your aim: redress the wronged, hear the orphan’s plea, defend the widow" (Isaiah 1:13-17)

But hey, Dave, you fancy yourself the biblical scholar. I am just a guy reading God's Word. You are the blogger.

God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them

This says nothing about abortion.

Be fertile and multiply

This says nothing about abortion, unless, of course, you think that anyone not having children is sinning.

"If men strive, and hurt a women with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life

Hmm... interesting verse. Interestingly the offender receives a lesser punishment than a murderer does. Why is that? Further, causing a miscarriage is different than having an abortion.

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret

This says nothing about abortion.

Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb?

This says nothing about abortion.

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.

This says nothing about abortion.

Thou shalt not kill

This is the probably the closest you can get, but the verse actually says "thou shalt not murder." And being that a murderer receives a greater punishment than a man who causes a miscarriage, I guess this verse doesn't say anything about abortion either.

See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven

This says nothing about abortion.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

This says nothing about abortion.

But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased

This says nothing about abortion.

"This is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another, unlike Cain who belonged to the evil one and slaughtered his brother

This says nothing about abortion.

And another sojourn back to Old Testament for what I would consider a pretty fair reproach of the murder of innocent humans in the womb (unless you want to parse words, in which case reread above):

Parse words? You mean, read the text for what it actually says instead of what you WANT it to say? Again, the verse says nothing about abortion.

But hey, Dave, you fancy yourself the biblical scholar. I am just a guy reading God's Word. You are the blogger.

Umm... where did I "fancy" myself a "biblical scholar?" I am a blogger, who has studied the bible. You are a guy commenting on a blog, who has studied the Bible.

But at least I know how to not completely take verses out of context in order to use them to "proof-text" my arguments.

Look.. I have not said that I support abortion. I have said that I believe that there is little Biblical support for an opposition to abortion. I have also said that there is more than one issue that Christians should be concerned about.

You don't seem to get that.

Now... do me a favor, and go troll about it somewhere else. Please.

You are very anxious for me to "go troll somewhere else". Why is that? Do you want to silence your critics? You're the editor, you can block anyone you want. I don't think it at all a stretch to look those verses as a defense of the sanctity of human life. Are you pro-abortion? Or do you call yourself pro-life? Those are fair and relevant questions.

You are very anxious for me to "go troll somewhere else". Why is that? Do you want to silence your critics?

I have no patience for someone trolling on blogs and acting as the arbiter of who is and isn't a Christian. I have no patience for someone trolling on blogs creating straw man arguments.

I am not interested in silencing critics around here. I have never have been. But I also am not interested in arguing with trolls like you.

You're the editor, you can block anyone you want.

You are right, and I am asking you to leave.

I don't think it at all a stretch to look those verses as a defense of the sanctity of human life.

You obviously believe that. But the verses are simply not talking about abortion. At all.

Are you pro-abortion? Or do you call yourself pro-life? Those are fair and relevant questions.

I call myself pro-life. All life. Not just unborn life.

Stay on point folks, especially you Dave. Abortion is wrong and voting for a man who endorses it in the most liberal way and will confirm Supreme Court justices to legislate such policy is tantamount to doing it yourself.

God decides right and wrong, and he chose life! Save the moral relativity for the terrorists for Obama forum.

The left fights harder to paint the constitution as a living, breathing, document than they do to make sure babies have the chance to live and breathe.

Stay on point folks, especially you Dave.

Stay on point? This is my blog, I can write about what I want. Further, this thread wasn't originally about abortion, so I am not sure what your point, that I am supposed to stay on, is.

Abortion is wrong and voting for a man who endorses it in the most liberal way and will confirm Supreme Court justices to legislate such policy is tantamount to doing it yourself.

Huh? This makes no sense at all. Voting for a politician that endorses abortion is the same as aborting yourself? Or is the same as supporting abortion?

Does that mean that you support every single thing of every candidate that you vote for?

God decides right and wrong, and he chose life!

God chose a lot of things, at least from what we can tell by reading the Bible. But abortion wasn't one of them.

Save the moral relativity for the terrorists for Obama forum.

Go away. I don't want to deal with crap like this. You should be embarrassed that you are spouting crap like that.

Pardon me if I don't put much credence in your statement about not making any sense. You see I'm living in bizzaro world right now posting in a self-reported Christian forum countering rationalizing posts about the slaughter of innocent children.

Yes, when you go in the voting booth and vote Obama knowing he is so ardently in support of the most liberal baby killing laws ever proposed and will appoint Supreme Court justices that at minimum continue the death count you might as well put on a smock and suck the life out of the child yourself.

I'm no religious scholar, but, I'm pretty comfortable in my belief that killing babies would be bad in God's eyes. Just a hunch. Maybe something, maybe nothing.

rationalizing posts about the slaughter of innocent children.

Where have I rationalized the "slaughter of innocent children?"

I have simply said that there are other issues that Christians should be concerned about. Sorry that you are not able to understand that.

And you didn't answer my question. When you go into the voting booth and voter for someone, does that make you a supporter of everything that they believe?

Yes, yes it does. If you vote, you are advocating their assuming power to enact their policies. I would hate to paint you, incorrectly, with the wrong brush -- are you pro-life or pro-abortion?

Really... so are you voting? If so, who are you voting for?

Are you pro-life or are you pro-abortion? You forgot to answer.

Are you pro-life or are you pro-abortion? You forgot to answer.

I am pro-life.

And you didn't answer my question.

Please watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNzmly28Bmg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiSdoxQ5cpI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU2Yv-rnJEo&feature=related



Please review the votes of each and vote accordingly:

Obama:
http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490

McCain:

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270

Dave --

Now I know, you know, AND everybody to whom I sent screen captures know that you are censoring. You have no argument. You are deleting to hide. Dave, you can't hide anymore from yourself. Killing babies is wrong. Now we all know it. Thanks for the chance to prove what we already knew.

Now, just for fun, reread all of the posturing bits of pseudo-intellectual B.S. you laid on me and everyone else above and KNOW in your heart, you lost.

You truly have no legs on which to stand.

It has been fun, but you are no longer worth the time...

If I were censoring, I would have deleted have of the comment on this thread.

I have deleted your comments, and I will continue to do so after this last comment, because you are an obnoxious and annoying troll. And I am just deleting you, not anyone else who disagrees with me.

For what it is worth, I have, not once on this thread, supported abortion. I have not once, said that killing babies was okay. And I have not once pretended that I am the arbiter of who is and is not a Christian.

And seriously? You are sending screen captures around? And telling me that I am obsessive?

Go away...

Please people! Do your civil duty and read independant sites, and visit ALL the news stations. MSNBC is liberal owned and slanted. Fox is conservative owned and slanted. You can get some truth from both. Hannity is very very biased, and all of these news people are issued official "talking points" from the campaigns. The news is no longer objective as it used to be decades ago. It is all corporate driven and biased. Christianity??? When was Homosexuality/marriage and abortion the only two issues that define a true Christian? Jesus would be appauled. He is for grace, treating people with dignity and charity, using his life as an example, loving all. THAT is a Christian. Jesus never ever spoke of homosexuality or abortion. Of course one can take inferences from the old testament, but there is also alot odd stuff there too that no one abides by today. If you believe that terminating a pregnancy that has not formed into a fetus yet murder, then so be it. That is a fine belief, but not scientificly proven. The government should not legislate morality. That is what our churches do for the community. Obama is not "for" abortion nor would he be "for" killing unwanted born babies. That practice is illegal, and a non issue. No woman can not ask a doctor to kill a baby who is born viable. It is against the hypocratic oath not to mention laws. Now please people, put logic ahead of campaign rhetoric. Besides, Roe V Wade will NEVER be repealed. We've had the chance, and it never happens. The truth is, it is too valuable of an issue to be used to sway votes in every election by both parties. It is always paraded out to the forefront in each and every election. It "aint" going anywhere. Anyway, after this election, I have lost respect for what I thought was the best religion in the world. The religion that valued love, redemption, acceptance, kindness. What I have seen is biggetry, name calling, lying, comdemning. If being against abortion and homosexuality is the only thing that makes one a Christian, then I find that ignorant and against everything Jesus Christ stands for. You can pusuade through your love and example to help influence, but to force legislation and condem those who would rather keep government and religion separate....well.... I find that a horrible face to put on Christianity. Jesus would be so ashamed of his followers lame attempts at emulating his life. Jesus is awesome, but I'm affraid the Christian Movement has sinned greatly!!

As a Christian and an independent, the “moral issue” for me is not as easy to decide on as most of my fellow Christian Americans would have it seem. Allow me to explain:

I see both parties as being completely EQUAL in standing for the something that is morally wrong with the Word of God.
————————————————–
Demonstration:
Democrat- ABORTION RIGHTS
Reason for justification: It’s pro-choice… Woman’s tight to choose etc.
Biblical stance: It’s murder of life. Killing of unborn babies.

Republican- WAR IN IRAQ (and the possibility of more wars coming in similar context)
Reason for justification: War on Terror…
Biblical stance: Lies and deception were used as grounds for going in and starting a war that has numerous questionable motives. But all of the political talking points aside– Using deception and lies does not go together in harmony with God’s Word. Therefore, it can be viewed as the same as above: Murder of life, causing the deaths of countless human beings. (soldiers as well as tens of thousands of men woman and children on the other side… Some say more than how many Saddam killed…?)
————————————————–

BOTTOM LINE: The moral issue is disqualified. They are both horrendous and result in the cost of human life… Therefore they are EQUAL in this category.
Obviously the talking points and debates could go back and forth when held under political light, but all a Christian has to do is hold it under the light of Gods Word, and both sides fall completely. And so ultimately– as a Christian this is what teeters me on the thin line between two parties declaring me as an “independent”.

————————————————–

So what’s left? If both men stand for something that is more political than moral, what becomes the deciding factor? For me it is very difficult.

But there is an approach that remains very Christian… and that is to “consider others as greater than” ourselves. As difficult as it is, try to see the affect of the plans that both candidates have on your fellow man… Look for strong indications that certain plans and policies will most likely be carried out by that candidate and consider how those will affect our brother… Our neighbor.. Our children.. And then, ultimately, the election becomes what WE are going to do for our country. Not them. WE become the ones who are actually enacting those changes that will hopefully affect our fellow man.

This line of thought is the very factor that has me as an undecided tilting in Obama’s favor… And it is the Word of God that I am using as a guide to follow in this direction. Let me demonstrate:

In the book of Acts, we have in the 2nd chapter, verse 44-45 it says, “And all that believed were together and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” Now lately we have heard that the “sharing of wealth is called SOCIALISM. Well, according to these verses from the Bible, the early Christians were practicing “socialism”.

And then, we have Jesus telling the man who had observed the Law of God and followed all of the commandments to go and sell what he has and give to the poor to obtain “treasures in heaven”… But the man went away sad because he had “great possessions” and could not part with them. And that is just one of many verses where Jesus upholds the poor over the wealthy.

And this takes me to the current Republican candidates’ stance regarding their problem with “spreading the wealth”. The whole idea that a Christian doesn’t want his/her hard earned wages “redistributed” to help others is completely out of sync with Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Yes, I have heard all of the “spin” about socialism, marxism, communism, etc. But again, those comments are not only exaggerations, but are also coming out of political reasoning– not Biblical reasoning. Being unbiased I have tried to apply both of the points of reasoning togther, but they just won’t work.

Somehow, though, the Christian majority has this “moral issue” about abortion and gay rights outweighing all of the above. But clearly, the scriptures demonstrate the contrary. And again, I reiterate that not only does a war based on a lie(s) have the same mortal loss of life outcome as abortion rights. But added to that are the notions that surround wealth and how it affects the less fortunate when it comes to disease and lack of care because of money. The results are similar.

It fascinates me what God has put before us… It’s almost like a test. You have these candidates up there standing for “this and that”, and we are looking at them as if THEY are the final voice of God… But it’s not about them. It’s about US. There is a more important poll that is going on right now– it is a poll that we will never see the numbers on in this life. It’s poll of our hearts… And God is looking at the percentage points of those polls. And one way or another, it will affect us as Christians and what our true motives are in what we stand for in this election and why we stand for it. And I believe that we have sincere brothers and sisters in Christ voting on both sides of the ticket who will be blessed for their vote, no matter who it is for. There are those who are so passionate to the point of tears who will vote McCain because of their absolute sincere belief in the abortion issue… They really care for those souls of the unborn. And at the same time I believe that there are the same kind of people voting for the opposite side who see suffering of the people in terrible circumstances and suffering that believe with all of their hear that Obama will save those individuals.

But at the same time, I also fear the ones who are too caught up in worldly details and the motives in their heart stray more to selfish gain or political motivation. I fear that that some vote against abortion simply because they want to be viewed only as right with God…. That it is a self-righteous legalistic decision more than a heart-felt decision… (Same as when the Pharisees who saw themselves as “right with God” criticized Jesus for healing on the Sabbath because it was outside of the Law of God.) And also, I fear those who vote for Obama because they are simply liberal and seek to continue to capitalize on their freedom to promote Godless practices and living such as the selfish right to do anything– whether it’s gay marriage or blatant sexual immorality.

But ultimately in the end– I believe God is looking at those poll percentages of our hearts. And we will not know the outcome on election day, but rather what takes place from then on. Will he bless our country? Or will he do as the the book of Deuteronomy says in that as a man chastens his son, so Lord chastens us… Or when Hebrews says that “no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”

Chastening is a very realistic possibility as we go through rough times.

But the last point I want to mention from the scriptures regarding this is election is the scriptures regarding the “fruits of the spirit”. They are; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..” as well as the call for humility in the verse from Colossians that says: “As God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience. Bear with one another and if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you.”

And specifically noting “Humility”, in that I could be wrong… But either way, whoever feels that the other guy is wrong, we aim to have the qualities of the that the scripture states above in admonishing one another as Christians.

Having said that— and under humility- though I am leaning Obama– I am not an “Obama man”. I am just leaning for the qualities outlined in the above. And again– I could be wrong– and I should add that I welcome BEING wrong. I don’t want to be disappointed on election day, regardless of who wins. I want hope. I would love to be convinced that McCain would be great as well. As a politically unbiased voter who is Christian– I just want everyone and everything to be okay.

And so, as Christians– we are all equal under God– no matter who you vote for.. And if we disagree, we admonish each other under the guidelines of Galatians 5:22. And by doing do, “..Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and mutual edification.” -Romans 14:19

Chris

Found your thoughts and comments to be very thoughtful and insightful.

I'm fascinated by reading these viewpoints. There is always going to be disagreement among us, for we are all short of understanding and wisdom. I wish, though, that all of us could set aside our judgements of each other. It especially hurts to see fellow Christians accusing each other of being non-Christian. I don't think this is for us to decide - it is between a man/woman and God. God judges our hearts and in fact orders us not to judge each other.

Whether or not you voted for Obama in this election, it is true, like he says, that he is now your president, too. I pray that instead of falling back into divisions that America's Christians will come together and be a light for the world TOGETHER, and fight for what's right TOGETHER. We are one body, aren't we?

For all those that claim to be Christians and voted for Obama. The blood of hundreds of thousands of murdered babys is now on your hands. Good job thinking with your pocketbook.

For all those that claim to be Christians and voted for Obama.

This is not a sentence.

The blood of hundreds of thousands of murdered babys [sic] is now on your hands.

Yea... because I am sure that John McCain would have banned abortion on day one. Oh wait...

Good job thinking with your pocketbook.

Good job in your ability to only think about one issue. And my vote had nothing to do with my pocketbook.

Good try though.

Now go troll somewhere else.