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Pro-life
(Stance that I consider "pro-life" is in black)
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Dave-- If you to choose one side over the other on the Embryonic Stem Cell Research topic. What side would you go with?
Comment from: The Big Lowitzki [Visitor] · http://hippydave.brendoman.com 03/23/05 @ 17:26
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I support embryonic stem cell research. I would love to see a way that we could use all of the embyros that are not currently being used to research them. There is so much potential to save life through embryonic stem cell research.
Dave I agree with you.
Meh, it's a two party system. What can we expect Dave?
The stem-cell thing is trouble. My biology friend, who does lab work in a hospital says that embryonic stem cells have produced very little findings where adult stem cells from spinal taps have proved very successful. She is a staunch Republican, so I take most of her thoughts on political issues with a grain of salt, however on this one she is in a good position and did attempt to explain the ramifications of both pro embryonic and anti embryonic stem cell research. I think the biggest fear is that it promotes embryonic harvesting for the research.
The chart's a great idea.
A lot of activist groups issue report cards on how politicians fare on the group's pet issues. Maybe the Consistent Life coalition should do something like that.
Also, I just saw some news stories coming out today saying that some researchers have found that certain stem cells from the adult nose were able to turn into any kind of cell in the body, a quality that had only been seen before in embryonic cells. A lot more research will need to be done on it, I'm sure, but it will be very cool if that works out.
Some dems went anti-war for political gain. . . . How'd that work out for them?
"The Democrats have only jumped on the anti-war bandwagon once it became politically beneficial."
Not true. Dave, this is what we get when we have a 2 party system and a chart that depicts it. There are progressive Democrats, there are Green Democrats, Bernie Sanders, Howard Dean, Kucinich, Clark... there were several Republicans as well that voted against.
It's not black and white. I don't think your chart is "great", I actually think it's chock-full of over generalizations.
Comment from: The Big Lowitzki [Visitor] · http://hippydave.brendoman.com 03/24/05 @ 08:52
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Gringo...I agree this is a result of a two party system. What is your point though? That does not mean that we have to accept it and be okay with it. I can still point out what I don't like with the results, and do what I can to change things.
I already said that the chart was a generalization. Yea, sure...you can give a few Democrats who didn't support the war (though Clark did). But that does not mean that the Democrats on a whole were against the war. The Democrats, on whole, clearly supported the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the military efforts in Bosnia, the bombing of Iraq during Clinton, etc. It's not black and white. I don't think your chart is "great", I actually think it's chock-full of over generalizations. I never said it was black and white. And I never said it was great. Joan didn't even say it was great...she said it was a "great idea". I also said that it contained generalizations, but I think the generalizations were pretty fair. If you don't think so, let me know how I was unfair. I am not saying, by any means, that every Democrat and every Republican fits into these categories. As I said, there are exceptions. You know how you always get mad at Roland for supporting the Republican Party? You do the same thing with the Democrat Party. You have become more and more partisan over the last year.
Comment from: The Big Lowitzki [Visitor] · http://hippydave.brendoman.com 03/24/05 @ 08:56
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Danny...I would say it helped them gain votes, or at least mobilize votes. A decent sized anti-war group rose up before the election, and if the Dems would not have changed their view, I think that they would have lost by even more.
Kevin...you are right when they say nothing has been found through embryonic stem cell research....yet. But the problem with this argument is that the research at this point is quite new and quite limited. It is difficult to do good research and findings in short periods of time with limited "subjects" (in this case...the stem cells). To me that argument does not carry much weight. It is to early to see the results of embryonic stem cell research.
As Rolando would say "Argh!! Too many fallacies!!"
1.) No, Clark did *not* support the war from the get go. I've read his testimonies and he is clear in that it was an option to be put on the table but only as a last resort. You sure you want to go bat on this one because what you said isn't true. 2.) "What is your point though?" My point? Huh? Thought I made that pretty clear here and in my past rants. This chart does no justice. You think all politicians fall under this? It's too general... perhaps it'd work better between two specific candidates but two parties? 3.) "You know how you always get mad at Roland for supporting the Republican Party? You do the same thing with the Democrat Party. You have become more and more partisan over the last year." You and I both know we lean one way more than the other. I've stated time and time again that I would've rather seen somebody else than JFK. Your statement is a huge mischaracterization of what I've said in the past. Roland has said some crazy crazy things imho, retorting back and disagreeing makes me more partisan? How many times have I mentioned ballot reform, IRV, NOTA, access for third parties? The chart has too many over generalizations in it therefore it ceases to be factual and "fair." You asked for feedback Dave and I'm giving it to you. Things aren't black and white and you agree but what gives with you defending a black and white chart?
I'm also curious and don't get me wrong but it seems you've been partial towards Clinton. I have always had my reservations about the man but as compared to Bush he looks pretty darn good.
What brings me to this is this statement "the bombing of Iraq during Clinton, etc." And once you did say something about Clark supporting the bombings in Bosnia and you frowned upon it but mind you that was under Clinton as well. Clark agreed but on the same token was following orders. You've just always struck me as a person who was pro-Clinton. Am I wrong? Do you see where I'm going?
Comment from: The Big Lowitzki [Visitor] · http://hippydave.brendoman.com 03/24/05 @ 11:18
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I never said that "all politicians" fell under this, nor did I say it was "black and white".
I said that it was a generalization, and had exceptions. Please tell me where I am being unfair. You have yet to show how I have "over generalized". I know, and have acknowledged, that there are clearly exceptions. But that does not mean that chart is not helpful. This table is meant to be an overall generalization of the two parties. It is impossible to create a chart where every politician fits into. But this chart does generally fit party platforms and the mainstream view of those that are in the parties, does it not?
Comment from: The Big Lowitzki [Visitor] · http://hippydave.brendoman.com 03/24/05 @ 11:25
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No...I am not a huge fan of Clinton. I like certain things about him, and I think he was a much better president than people give him credit for. But he is far from my perfect choice as a president.
I used to be a bigger fan, but I have moved further to the left and realized that my ideologies are not very much in line with Clinton's.
did you amend it? that's cool.
LIUW4OIURSLGNKL;AJBHKEJHRIOWUH!!!! "Please tell me where I am being unfair. You have yet to show how I have "over generalized"." when we're limited to 2... now 3 labels it's not fair. What's so hard to understand about this? Do you want me to break it down for each issue you've brought up? It's like you're making me choose between coke, pepsi, and rc (ok, maybe that's a bad example). but we're talking about millions and millions of voters and thousands of elected officials. You say it has exceptions, I say it has too many exceptions for each issue. I'm not bashing you dude, we think a lot a like and for example your statement "I used to be a bigger fan, but I have moved further to the left and realized that my ideologies are not very much in line with Clinton's." I can say the same about Clark as I read more and more. You asked about your chart so I said something.
Dave- I want to go on record as saying the "chart is a great idea". Sure it can be argued but it is still a valuable tool for looking at how the issues stack up. I was amazed that anyone could put together such a simple chart. I am jealous that I did not think the chart up.
Comment from: Anna Phor [Visitor] 04/08/05 @ 16:52
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I know I'm a little late posting to this (blame Crooked Timber), but I just wanted to say that you are conflating "abortion" with "choice" -- the Dems (and the left generally) aren't "for abortion", they are for choice. It's an important difference.
Anna...that is a fair criticism, as I agree that it is an important difference.
I made the change to pro-life and pro-choice, as those are the phrases that each group uses.
Comment from: Roland [Visitor] 04/08/05 @ 17:21
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Infanticide isn't an acceptable choice. You can't "choose" molestation either.
And I would argue that the anti-abortion side is not "pro-life" as much as anti-abortion. I am changed it to reflect the terminology that each side uses.
Comment from: Kevin [Visitor] 03/08/06 @ 22:07
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I was wondering where I would fall on the political spectrum. I consider myself "pro-innocent life." This means that I am against abortion. It also means I am against the death penalty because there have been innocent executions. However, I also consider myself pro-war in Iraq because I believe we are saving innocent lives. I've been searching hard for a political party that fits me, and I would appreciate anyone's help.
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